FED

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by greymule
In situation 19, what if the runner had not been tagged while standing on 3B, but instead an infielder in possession of the live ball had kicked some dirt off 2B before throwing the ball to the pitcher? Does PeteBooth's example of the play at 1B apply at other bases, too?

PeteBooth, I've read the example you gave at 1B, but I can't find it. Where is it?

The example at first is 8.2.3 -- and, yes, it applies to other bases.

In TexRef's play ("accidental appeal" on winning runs) -- the answer is "IF you would have declared the runner out last year at the end of playing action, then call him out on the appeal this year."

SHould they get rid of the accidental appeal? IMHO, yes. But it's not a new issue this year -- it's been in the books for (at least) several years -- if you havne;t had a problem with it before, why would you think yo'd have a problem with it now?

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

In situation 19, what if the runner had not been tagged while standing on 3B, but instead an infielder in possession of the live ball had kicked some dirt off 2B before throwing the ball to the pitcher? Does PeteBooth's example of the play at 1B apply at other bases, too?

PeteBooth, I've read the example you gave at 1B, but I can't find it. Where is it?

Bob gave you where you can find it., however, this part of the appeal rule always existed. It's now getting play because we will have a tough time seliing it to a coach. Under the old rule, whether the appeal was accidental or not didn't make a difference, because in essence their were no appeals in FED.

Pete Booth

[greymule]

We had our first rules review meeting last night, and as might be expected, confusion reigned over the new appeals processes. Some people were insisting that if a runner hit a ball off the wall, touched first, and then missed second on his way to third, a fielder could immediately appeal to the umpire, who by rule must now call the runner out even with the live throw coming in. The one thing that was agreed upon was that we should call time out as soon as play stops so that runners can't try to advance if the coach says, "Hey ump, the guy missed second."

Then the bomb was dropped: "This year, if a runner misses a base and a fielder with the ball touches that base, even accidentally, you have to bang that runner out immediately." I tried to explain that this pertained only to force plays, but nobody wanted to hear it. When I brought up Situation 19, they said tags don't count--only inadvertent touching of the base. When I showed them the ruling in black and white, they said they'd ask the interpreter.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by greymule

We had our first rules review meeting last night, and as might be expected, confusion reigned over the new appeals processes. Some people were insisting that if a runner hit a ball off the wall, touched first, and then missed second on his way to third, a fielder could immediately appeal to the umpire, who by rule must now call the runner out even with the live throw coming in. The one thing that was agreed upon was that we should call time out as soon as play stops so that runners can't try to advance if the coach says, "Hey ump, the guy missed second."

Then the bomb was dropped: "This year, if a runner misses a base and a fielder with the ball touches that base, even accidentally, you have to bang that runner out immediately." I tried to explain that this pertained only to force plays, but nobody wanted to hear it. When I brought up Situation 19, they said tags don't count--only inadvertent touching of the base. When I showed them the ruling in black and white, they said they'd ask the interpreter.

I'm from NY and our meeting went the same. The thing that struck me funny was that all these veteran FED umpires over the years that wined about the OLD FED rule saying it wasn't real baseball, don't have a clue as to what the new rule is and it's my gut that controversy is on the Horizon.

The only thing that will probably save it is: In reality how many missed base infractions are there in a season? probably not too many.

Pete Booth

[TxUmp]

Originally posted by TxUmp
[B]A further complication to my original post:

The situation is now further expanded to the 7th inning, home team down 1 run, 2 outs, bases loaded, B1 hits safely, and R1 misses 2nd and is thrown out before reaching 3rd for the 3rd out. R3 and R2 have scored before the play at 3rd. The game is over in either case. Defense does not realize that R1 missed 2nd.

If you call the "accidental" appeal, no runs score because of the force play at 2nd and the visitors win. If you don't call it, two runs score and the home team wins. How are you going to get off the field alive?

I think many of you are missing the point of my question.

Everyone (players, coaches and fans - and probably your partner) thinks the game is over because the home team has just scored two runs to go up 1 run on the same play where the 3rd out is recorded on the same play. The game is over in any case.

BUT if you call the "accidental" appeal on R1 for missing second base, NO RUNS SCORE and the VISITING team wins!

How do you handle this situation? Ignore it and you are intentionally ignoring a rule situation which changes the outcome of the game. But you are the ONLY one who saw it or knows the rule.

You can walk off the field and everyone is happy, except you.

Call it and you have started a war! But you got the rule right.

Does this fall in the category of "Don't make trouble for yourself!"? Can you feel that you have not compromised your integrity if you don't call a rule that you know should be correctly applied in this situation?

I like the new appeal procedure, but we should do away with the accidental appeal possibility.

[Roger Greene]

Herb,

IMO, Call it. Just like the "shoulder turn balk".

Our likes and dislikes have little to do with it. The only way the "accidental appeal" in Rule 2 will be fixed will be if it proves a problem in some high profile games.

Roger Greene

[Carl Childress]

Originally posted by TxUmp
[B]

I think many of you are missing the point of my question.

Everyone (players, coaches and fans - and probably your partner) thinks the game is over because the home team has just scored two runs to go up 1 run on the same play where the 3rd out is recorded on the same play. The game is over in any case.

BUT if you call the "accidental" appeal on R1 for missing second base, NO RUNS SCORE and the VISITING team wins!

How do you handle this situation? Ignore it and you are intentionally ignoring a rule situation which changes the outcome of the game. But you are the ONLY one who saw it or knows the rule.

You can walk off the field and everyone is happy, except you.

Call it and you have started a war! But you got the rule right.

Does this fall in the category of "Don't make trouble for yourself!"? Can you feel that you have not compromised your integrity if you don't call a rule that you know should be correctly applied in this situation?

I like the new appeal procedure, but we should do away with the accidental appeal possibility.

Herb:

I agree with Roger: You'll have to call it.

But it ain't gonna happen very often, not even in El Campo.

Give 'em a chance; likely they'll do something about it for next year.