In 25 words . . .

Crap, and now I just caught the "why it is NOT a balk". I have nothing. I would balk that all day.

[UmpJM]

rei,

Have you seen this, from the MLBUM:

(i) It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pick-off move to first base by first moving his foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with the non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pick-off move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base.

or this, from J/R:

Following are two steps that are legal.

A. "Jab" Step (of the pivot foot): In cases of a right-handed pitcher throwing to first, or a left-handed pitcher throwing to third, or any pitcher throwing to second, a pitcher can take a "jab" or "stutter" step with his pivot foot before stepping to the base with his free foot. ....

It's legal. If you balked it all day, you would be wrong (and protestable) all day.

JM

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

rei,

Have you seen this, from the MLBUM:



or this, from J/R:



It's legal. If you balked it all day, you would be wrong (and protestable) all day.

JM

I see. So what pages in the NCAA and NFHS rule books did you get these out of?

[UmpJM]

rei,

The NCAA and NFHS rule books (not to mention the OBR) do not say anything about the "Jab Step" move. The J/R quote above is from the "rule Differences Edition", which diligently notes differences between OBR and NCAA. There is no difference noted.

This is the most authoritative opinion I have been able to find on the subject.

Have you got anything other than your (mistaken) interpretation that it is illegal?

JM

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

rei,

The NCAA and NFHS rule books (not to mention the OBR) do not say anything about the "Jab Step" move. The J/R quote above is from the "rule Differences Edition", which diligently notes differences between OBR and NCAA. There is no difference noted.

This is the most authoritative opinion I have been able to find on the subject.

Have you got anything other than your (mistaken) interpretation that it is illegal?

JM

For FED, I believe you should review the balk rule before you claim I am "mistaken".

[UmpJM]

rei,

Been there, done that. Of course, reviewing the OBR balk rules could also lead one to the erroneous conclusion that a "jab step" move is illegal.

BTW, are you in Tee's association?

JM

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

rei,

Been there, done that. Of course, reviewing the OBR balk rules could also lead one to the erroneous conclusion that a "jab step" move is illegal.

BTW, are you in Tee's association?

JM

What was describe, regardless of what label you give it, is a balk under NFHS rules. Until NFHS say otherwise, I will balk a move like that.

Yes, I know Tim well enough.

[Tim C]

This is a great conversation.

Yes, I know Rei quite well. We work together once or twice a year. Rei also was the plate umpire for the State Championship game of Oregon's largest school classification this past spring.

Rei is also a member of the college association and this is where this discussion started. I was with three members of the college group Wednesday night and our conversation came around to this specific issue.

One of the leading college umpires in this small group said that he would balk the "jab step" EVERY TIME!

Now Rei chimes in with the same feeling.

This is why I asked the question and am totally confused.

(Note: I have no idea what SAUmp is even saying in his "rising fastball" post -- facts are still facts, no matter what those words mean.)

Regards,

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SAump

I think Mr Jenkins, Mr. Ives, Garth, TC, and others understand the respect I have for them.

To be frank, I understand very little about any of your posts.

[SAump]

Old rules limited the pitcher in the set position to stand facing the batter with the entire pivot foot on, or in front of, and in contact with, and not off the end of the pitcher's plate, and the other foot in front the pitcher's plate. Even as stiff as the old rules were, the jab step and jump turn were utilized by pitchers all over the country. There were never any balks called. IOW, I never heard NCAA umpire associations discuss the illegality of this practice prior this post. But now I understand Papa C's position regarding umpires posting on the internet and his decision not to participate.

From what I understand, this same rule has been recently modified to allow the pitcher to stand off the end of the plate while in contact with part of the pivot foot and to lift the restriction placed on the other free foot. I think this was part of the MLB decision to tighten the outer strike zone and a compromise to allow the pitcher an angle toward the plate. So my question is, when the RHP initiates his jab step to 3B, doesn't it actually land in a position that could also be utilized by the other free foot of a lefty standing on the 3B edge of the pitcher's plate?
---------------
I wouldn't call a balk on RHP for placing his pivot foot in the same location a lefty would utilize in the set position. {24}

or

You called the balk. Go explain it to the coach now and see if he accepts your rationale or leaves his opinion on the field. {25}

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SAump

Call the balk. Accept the protest. It's your ASZ on the line. Go ahead and see what the protest committee tells you and bet your last paycheck on it too.

Last time I looked at a map, San Antonio is not annexed from the state of Texas. Texas does not allow protests in FED.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Last time I looked at a map, San Antonio is not annexed from the state of Texas. Texas does not allow protests in FED.

Like saying Texas doesn't allow bad calls. Bad calls can result in negative outcomes for either coach or umpire. Start a new thread and tell us how UIL and TASO handle it {bad calls, ejections, protests}. They will always be good and bad calls, good and bad disputes about those calls, good and bad ejections, and good or bad repercussions to follow.

[Tim C]

I think what Paronto is really focusing in on is that a pitcher that does a jab step has never disengaged and that cannot be an argument for a balk.

I also beleive that Paronto clearly has stated that the jab step is perfectly legal.

Now to take this to NFHS rules.

We know on the fake to third and throw to first that it is clearly written that F1 must "break contact with the pitcher's plate" before throwing to first. This ALSO MEANS that he has step forward of the pitcher's plate just like in a jab step.

It is now clear too me that my college cohorts were a little cross threaded and I will share all this with them.

It appears perfectly clear to me now that the jab step is legal under all codes.

What we find often in NFHS rules is that change at the practical level happens far ahead of the written word.

Thank you to everyone for your input.

Regards,

[Tim C]

Sorry, we will have to just agree to disagree on a foot coming off the pitcher's plate.

The foot coming off during a pitch is apples: a foot coming off during a pickoff attempt is oranges.

The "point" that Paranto makes is:

F1 is NOT disengaging therefore there is no balk.

Regards,