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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 04:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David B
I'm sure he did, from what I've read in the past Todd Helton is a good guy and probably stood up for what was right.

I don't feel sorry for Bradley, but I also think Winters made a very poor judgement. It was not his call and he stuck his nose in his partner's business ...
Correct me if I am wrong, but Winters said something to his partner and his partner said something to Bradley. Then when Bradley got on base, he was confronted by him. That does not sound like sticking his nose into anything. I will always have my partner's back. I have no problems on Winters telling his partner about a player's action.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 04:43pm
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I don't share the knee-jerk defense of the umpire. The suspension seems to be more than justified.

Meacham (the first base coach) has not backed off anything. This is what he told MLB, according to the San Diego Union Tribune:


Winters instigated the incident by calling Bradley a “bleeping piece of (expletive).” It was Meacham who responded first, walking up to Winters.

“I'd never heard something like that on a baseball field,” Meacham said. “I was like, whoa, you can't say that. There was a reason why I walked on the field.”

“Winters should apologize to Milton,” Meacham said. “I know what I heard. Milton was wronged. His future is at stake here. I'm not in anybody's corner. I just want the truth to come out. Winters made a mistake. He lost his cool. He snapped. All of us make a mistake. It was stuff that just shouldn't be said. Milton did what anybody in baseball would have done.”

As for the "neutral witness," the Rockies first baseman: When asked Sunday about the incident, Helton chose his words carefully, saying it was "interesting and crazy."
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 06:25pm
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The same thing here in the papers. Winters was dumped for using profanity directed at the player. This has nothing to do with backing your partner or race. Bradley confronted Winters on his way to first and Winters held his hand up and told him to back off. Bradley lost his cool and Winters said, "Shut up, you "f***ng piece of sh**", according to those nearby. Sounds like he earned the penalty to me.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 06:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
But he does have a vested interest in the outcome.

Well, like I said in the other thread, this will just give Winters a break before the playoffs.
If Winters' actions were found to legitimately warrant a suspension, then IMHO, he shouldn't work the playoffs either.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 06:44pm
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Oh, Winters just gets to rest up for the playoffs, huh? Grow the F up.

You guys keep calling reddevil a rat, etc....he was the only one on this forum who was there, on the first base side, watching the whole thing, including the between innings antics of Runge and Winters.

It looks like Winters got what he deserved. You can't say that to someone without any consequence. He's lucky Meacham and Black were there to keep him from getting an a-whoopin'.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 07:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil19
1. Isn't "confronting Bradley" wrong in and of itself?

2. Knowing the penalties for criticizing umpires, and imagining the penalties for making THAT kind of an allegation and not being able to back it up, why exactly would anyone make that up? (And please spare me your "he's a rat" garbage)

3. There has to be a better way to "stick up for his fellow umpire."

4. What "show" is "Bradley running?"
1. Certainly not. However, the rules as to how that is done have changed.

As recently as the 70's and 80's umpires it was acceptable for umpires to use the same language as the Rats during heated confrontations. An F-you from the Rat was met with an F-you, too from the umpire. "Piece of ****" was and is a common reference of and by both rats and umpires.

Sometime in the last 20 years, for whatever reason, umpires have had their leash yanked when it comes to language on the field. I don't if today's player get his feelings hurt easier or what, but umpires are now taught to avoid using Rat language when arguing with Rats. Winters apparently lost his cool and slipped to the old ways.

2. Who knows why the first base coach lied. He lied twice. First he told the media that Winters made a "racial comment." Then he said it was a comment that "could be taken racially." With that, he threw Winters under the bus.

The result of F1's testimony and other (lip reading?) experts called upon by MLB indicate that Winters called the POS rat a "F@#&ing piece of sh!t."

The MLB investigation, according to some inside, also indicates that Winters reported exactly what he said to his crew chief. So when the first base coach also told the media that Winters lied to his crew chief, he was lying again.

3. Better language, perhaps.

4. None that I care to see.

So, while the original allegations against Winters have been proven false, he was found guilty of using inappropriate language, which he admitted, and has been suspended. Despite SDS claims, I have no problem admitting Winters' error now that the facts are known, and I believe his punishment is appropriate.

Now, I can wait just as patiently for the other shoe to fall. What penalty will be appropriate for Bradley?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 07:58pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayStateRef
I don't share the knee-jerk defense of the umpire. The suspension seems to be more than justified.

Meacham (the first base coach) has not backed off anything. This is what he told MLB, according to the San Diego Union Tribune:


Winters instigated the incident by calling Bradley a “bleeping piece of (expletive).”
Hasn't backed off? Hasn't backed off??????????

The first time he talked to the press, the lying F@#%ing piece of sh!t claimed that Winters made a "racial" comment. He toned it down later to a comment "that could be taken racially." And then, when confronted with the knowlege that the F3 would be testifying, changed his story again to the accurate statement.

Just what do you consider backing off?
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Last edited by GarthB; Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 08:32pm.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 08:07pm
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Thumbs up Thanks for the responses

Ok, I can see where you guys are coming from on this with your experiences and I appreciate the responses. I'm guessing that we're never going to publicly get the rest of the conversation that occurred, and at this point, it probably doesn't matter. Meacham probably should stop talking altogether now.

Someone mentioned that Winters "couldn't" eject Bradley from 1st at the time of the bat flip. It sure looked like that was his intention, but he stopped himself. In my time when I used to do PA and stats for my former High School's baseball team, I saw on a couple of occasions where one umpire got rid of a player who showed up the other umpire behind his back. I'm guessing that something like that maybe is frowned upon at MLB level? From my fan perspective, I really wish Winters had done that.

Thanks again for your insights.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 08:14pm
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Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
Oh, Winters just gets to rest up for the playoffs, huh? Grow the F up.
Most likley he will also be fined more than three days pay. His suspension is real, unlike the farce that goes on when a pitcher is suspended for three games.

Quote:
You guys keep calling reddevil a rat, etc....he was the only one on this forum who was there, on the first base side, watching the whole thing, including the between innings antics of Runge and Winters.
And since the whole question centered on what was said at firstbase by Winters and Bradley, reddevil's testimony means squat.

Quote:
It looks like Winters got what he deserved.
I agree. Will Bradley get what he deserves?

Quote:
You can't say that to someone without any consequence. He's lucky Meacham and Black were there to keep him from getting an a-whoopin'.
No, Bradley's lucky. POS or not, if he had touched Winters he'd have had serious problems.
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Last edited by GarthB; Wed Sep 26, 2007 at 08:16pm.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 08:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Most likley he will also be fined more than three days pay. His suspension is real, unlike the farce that goes on when a pitcher is suspended for three games.



And since the whole question centered on what was said at firstbase by Winters and Bradley, reddevil's testimony means squat.



I agree. Will Bradley get what he deserves?



No, Bradley's lucky. POS or not, if he had touched Winters he'd have had serious problems.
A rat calls an umpire a piece of ****, he merely gets ejected. Certainly not suspended, or Bobby Cox would've been out for the last 15 years.

Finally, MLB has publicly admitted that the umpires are no more important than the bases they work. I shouldn't be surprised.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 08:51pm
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Winters got what he deserved? Maybe, maybe not.

As far as Bradley goes, poetic justice may have to prevail here.

There is no where in civilized society that anyone can react the way that Bradley has, now and in the past, and not face serious consequences. That young man has some serious, serious anger and in my opinion maturity issues.

It's of little interest to me if he ever plays again. JMHO
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 09:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
1. Not necessarily.

2. Based on what I've read, the coach has backed off his initial allegations.

(3 & 4 -- no comment).

Here's what I think. This was a typical "chain of events" scenario. No single action was "over the top", but when added together they lead to a negative situation. If any action had not occurred, we wouldn't have had this. (If Bradley hadn't flung the bat, if Runge would have noticed and addressed it immeidately, if Winters had stayed out of it, if Winters hadn't made a show of addressing it, if Runge hadn't brought it back up later, if Bradley had let it go, ...)

They were all to blame, and all have the "defense" of "well, he started it."


MLB is right to send them to "time out", and I bet MLB know more about the story then will ever be made public.
Quite a spin. But the facts and the quotes point to the umpire as the bad guy in this one.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 09:16pm
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One point of interest. How oblivious is Brian Runge not to see a bat thrown at him? That event hasn't been mentioned by any of the umpire crew as being serious or I feel it would have been addressed at the actual time it happened. Whether you like Milton Bradley or not, Mike Winters is the one who crossed the line big time. If I have a situation that needs to be taken care of, I'm doing it then, not three innings later.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 09:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Tyler
One point of interest. How oblivious is Brian Runge not to see a bat thrown at him? That event hasn't been mentioned by any of the umpire crew as being serious or I feel it would have been addressed at the actual time it happened. Whether you like Milton Bradley or not, Mike Winters is the one who crossed the line big time. If I have a situation that needs to be taken care of, I'm doing it then, not three innings later.
I read that Runge had turned to take a substitute and missed the bat flip by Bradley. I agree that the right response from base umpires would be to turn and walk away.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 26, 2007, 09:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichMSN
A rat calls an umpire a piece of ****, he merely gets ejected. Certainly not suspended, or Bobby Cox would've been out for the last 15 years.

Finally, MLB has publicly admitted that the umpires are no more important than the bases they work. I shouldn't be surprised.
The problem with this is you put players and umpires on the same level. By the logic you are using, a parent should get a spanking or timeout or whatever discipline you use for raising his voice to a child just like the child who yells at the parent. The umpires are the arbiters of the game and should be held to a higher, much higher, standard than a player or a manager. MLB's decision is good for umpires because it acknowledges and demonstates the umpires' position on the field. He is in charge and should act like he is in charge. MLB's decision simply makes that point.
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