Obstruction and coach's interference video

[bobbybanaduck]

I put this up on one of the other forums a few months ago when it happened. I thought since some of you only use this one that I would put it up here, too, so you could all benefit from it.

I'm going to copy and paste from the other site to set up the video, then post the link.


original call on the play was "nothing" on the obstruction, and no call on the coach's assist.

i did not see the play as my eyes had gone with the ball and i was getting into position for a play at 2B had the B/R tried to advance. both managers came out to argue with U1, and i intercepted the defensive manager and pretty much told him to wait his turn. after the argument we got together and this is what we came up with...

the PU shed light on the coaches assist at 1b. so, we informed the offensive manager that there was no obstruction because F3 was where he needed to be to make the play and couldn't magically disappear, and that his B/R was out for the coach's assist. he got tossed. after that, the 1B coach got upset that U1 hadn't seen it and took offense to the over rule. he was tossed, too.

after reviewing the play post game, it turns out that the thrown ball had already gotten by F3, and actually almost hit the B/R after he had rounded 1B. the B/R avoided the ball, and then in his next step or two collided with F3. upon this review, it has been decided that obs should have been called, though it wouldn't have had an impact on the play as it would have been type b, and the B/R had retreated to 1B to argue instead of continuing on his (what should have been protected) way to 2B.

if you look at :38 in the video, you can see that he is watching the ball go through while he is moving behind 1B in foul ground. if you now go to :35 (my video is descending, i hope it is universal...) you can see that he is behind 1B and looking right at the possible obstruction, which he deemed nothing and gave the mechanic for. this is where the video cuts away and the ball goes by the catcher. now, move forward to :12. you see him giving the nothing mechanic, and looking at Jacobs cuz Jacobs is whining. between :11 and :10 you can see a very slight turn of his head as he then glances at the ball, which, unfortunately, is exactly when Gross pushes Jacobs off the bag. even though it is right in front of him, he doesn't see it cuz he looks in to see where the ball is. it sucks, but it happens. when we talked about it, he didn't know that Gross had pushed him.

http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/f..._Stream001.flv

[johnnyg08]

I would've awarded 2B here on OBS...as a baserunner, you're running to 2B to draw a throw to trade a run for an out. He would've reached 2B in my judgement, had the OBS not occurred. Then, I believe that since you have OBS and you're going to award 2B, then the INT on the 1B coach, the OBS supercedes the INT...I'm not sure, but this is a great video...thanks for posting and allowing me to chime in on this.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I would've awarded 2B here on OBS...

Based on the video, I would have had the runner protected to 2B as well.

as a baserunner, you're running to 2B to draw a throw to trade a run for an out. He would've reached 2B in my judgement, had the OBS not occurred.

Based on the "post obstruction evidence", the BR wouldn't have been "trading" anything and would have reached 2B safely even WITH the obstruction if he'd only kept going. If the obstruction had actually been called, maybe he would have (kept going).

Then, I believe that since you have OBS and you're going to award 2B, then the INT on the 1B coach, the OBS supercedes the INT...I'm not sure, but this is a great video...thanks for posting and allowing me to chime in on this.

I've got to disagree with you on that one. Just because the offense is/may be awarded an advance base, they are still required to advance legally. IMO, the base coach's interference supercedes the obstruction. Agree that it's a good video.

JM

[GarthB]

U3 did a great job.

[bobbybanaduck]

there's no play being made on the B/R, so you have type b obs if you were to call it. on type b you can protect him somewhere, but you can't play god. he stopped running and returned to first, taking umpire judgment out of play, and subjecting him to being called out on that coach's assist. this actually was discussed when we got together. if we were going to change the call and call obstruction, what would the result be? 1st base, becasue he stopped running. then he would be out of the assist.

the same type of play happened a few years ago in the ALCS or ALDS boston vs oakland. tejada was obstructed around 3B, it was called, but he stopped running and was subsequently thrown out at home. if you don't complete the play, then the umpire can't protect you.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I would've awarded 2B here on OBS...as a baserunner, you're running to 2B to draw a throw to trade a run for an out. He would've reached 2B in my judgement, had the OBS not occurred.

Steve

[bobbybanaduck]

Originally Posted by GarthB

U3 did a great job.

thanks, garth. all i had to do was intercept a manager cuz they both came out at the same time and went after U1. other than that i was just chillin'.

[UmpJM]

Forest,

Where on earth do you get the idea that a runner cannot be awarded an advance base on a Type B Obstruction call?

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

...on type b you can protect him somewhere, but you can't play god. ...

I would suggest that the rules say you CAN..."play god", that is.

The rule (and Official Interpretation) say that the umpire is to make a ruling that "...nullifies the act of obstruction...". Now in the video, were we to pretend that the 1B Coach did NOT shove the runner towards 2B after he returned, it is clear that he would have EASILY reached 2B had the F3 not obstructed him.

Since the BR was "hell bent" for 2B at the time of the Obstruction, it seems plain to me that the proper ruling on this play (again, absent the 1B coach's interference) would be to award the BR 2B after action relaxed. Because that is the ruling that would nullify the obstruction. Leaving him at 1B would allow the obstruction to prevent his advance.

A materially different situation from the Tejada play you reference because it was by no means clear in that situation that Tejada would have reached home absent the obstruction.

edited to add...

To me it's essentially the same principle applied in this case play from the MLBUM:

(6) Runner on first base, no one out. On a hit-and-run play, the batter hits a fair ball down the right field line. In rounding second base and heading for third, the runner from first collides with the shortstop and falls down. Because of the collision, the runner is not able to advance to third base and returns to second as the ball is being thrown back to the infield. Had the runner not collided with the shortstop, the runner would have easily advanced to third base.

Ruling: Obstruction is called when the collision occurs, but the ball remains in play because no play was being made on the obstructed runner at the moment he was obstructed. "Time" is called when all action has ceased, and the obstructed runner is awarded third base because that is the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred. The batter-runner would also be placed at the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred (either first or second, depending on the umpire's judgment).

JM

[TussAgee11]

OBS would have been a fine call here, but I can understand U1's snap second judgment. I had to look at the replay 2 times to see that OBS should have been called.

Secondly, great call on Coach's Interference. Even if you had OBS, INT overrules because you aren't protecting him to get pushed by his coach. He still has to stay in the rules. What if he had made malicious contact after OBS. Still gets tossed... and OUT. Same principle.

If there had been 2 outs, R2 would have scored as the Coach's INT is a time play, but R2 touched home before B/R was aided.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

I would suggest that the rules say you CAN..."play god", that is.

I think you're picking a nit.

Let's just agree that there can be disagreement on what "playing God" means.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by UmpJM (nee CoachJM)

Forest,

Where on earth do you get the idea that a runner cannot be awarded an advance base on a Type B Obstruction call?JM

I have corrected everything that was wrong with my original post.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by GarthB

I think you're picking a nit. ...

Garth,

I didn't mean to.

The point I was trying to make is that bobbybanaduck seems to suggest that it would be improper to award the BR 2B because he never "completed" his effort to reach 2B after he was obstructed.

I believe that is not a proper criteria for determining the correct ruling on the play.

Forest seemed to have been suffering under the misapprehension that a runner can NEVER be awarded an advance base on a Type B obstruction - which the case play I cited shows is patently wrong.

Somebody doesn't understand how to rule on Type B obstruction under OBR. Maybe it's me.

Havng seen the video, where would you have placed the BR if his 1B coach hadn't shoved him towards 2B?

JM

P.S. I would concur with your assessment of U3's performace on the play in question.

[Steven Tyler]

Call the obstruction and the interference in the order they happened.

B/R is out.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bobbybanaduck

there's no play being made on the B/R, so you have type b obs if you were to call it. on type b you can protect him somewhere, but you can't play god. he stopped running and returned to first, taking umpire judgment out of play, and subjecting him to being called out on that coach's assist. this actually was discussed when we got together. if we were going to change the call and call obstruction, what would the result be? 1st base, becasue he stopped running. then he would be out of the assist.

I think I agree with the ultimate call (runner out on coach's interference), but I disagree with the reasoning here.

The runner was impeded closer to 1B than 2B, so he returned to 1B. But it seems clear (after the play) that he would have made it to 2B had he not been obstructed. To negate the obstruction, then, I would have awarded 2B on the obstruction.

The problem with your thinking is that you've made the runner's decision to return to 1B decisive, which ignores the more important matter of negating the obstruction. A decision to return CAN be informative on some plays, but on this one it seems clear that the BR would have made 2B easily.

The important issue, by rule, is to negate the obstruction, and you may use post-play evidence (ball getting past F2, etc.) to make your award.

The outcome still won't be pretty: BR awarded 2B on the OBS but out on the coach's interference. Still, I think it's the right call, and I wonder whether it might have kept the O-coaches in the game (not that THAT's the most important issue here ).

[ozzy6900]

While I agree that this was a nasty situation, all I can say is:

Come on guy's, it's OBR! You take it step by step.

• Type B obstruction with BR- delayed award. (notice I did not say delayed dead ball)
• Coach's Interference on the BR
• 2nd base award to BR for the obstruction
• Call BR out for Coach's Interference
• Eject personnel as needed.

I think that Bobbybanaduck and his crew did a good job on this one. A tip of the hat to you and your crew.

Regards