hitting the ball w/foot out of box!

duckump · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 19, 2002, 12:56am

Just a strange Question? Would you or could you enforce Rule 6.06a if there are no chaulked batters box. NFHS or Pro rules.

bob jenkins · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 19, 2002, 01:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by duckump
Just a strange Question? Would you or could you enforce Rule 6.06a if there are no chaulked batters box. NFHS or Pro rules.

Yes, if the foot was clearly out of where the box should be (e.g., in front of, or behind, the plate).

If I think the batter is too far forward or (more likely) back, I'll draw a line in the dirt for the box.

greymule · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 19, 2002, 02:40pm

With no lines, I call it only if it's flagrant. Last summer, in an ASA tournament, a batter ran out in front of home plate and hit the ball, so I called it then. Nobody on either team said anything. Of course, most people don't know that the box extends 4 feet up from the side point of the plate, so whenever any batter runs up at all, I hear screams of "out of the box." A lot of ASA catchers will point at where a batter's foot was and try to get a call, but I think they do it half kidding, even when the batter might actually have stepped slightly beyond where a drawn line would have been.

In in ASA tournament about 20 years ago, I saw a team give up 10 runs in the top of the first inning but then hold the other team and scratch back to 10-9 in the bottom of the seventh. Bases loaded, two out, guy gets a hit to left, driving in two runs to win the game. Everybody piles on the guy in celebration, but when the noise dies down they find the umpire waving everything off and calling the guy out for being out of the box. He claimed that the batter (who had not run up but had planted his right foot and taken the normal one step with his left) had stepped beyond the BACK SIDE line of the box. This with the typical sandy batter's box and no visible lines whatsoever. A "discussion" followed.

sandinfla · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 27, 2002, 06:48am

All rules have the description of the batters box. I work Little League, they have 2 distances off the side of the plate, 4 & 6 inches. I always keep those sizes in my mind when I'm behind the plate. Flagrant or not, if you see it call it. Also, get an idea where your front & back lines lay. Measure your feet, step off your distance & scratch the clay to give yourself an idea of where that line is.

Ump20 · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Jan 27, 2002, 08:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by sandinfla
All rules have the description of the batters box. I work Little League, they have 2 distances off the side of the plate, 4 & 6 inches. I always keep those sizes in my mind when I'm behind the plate. Flagrant or not, if you see it call it. Also, get an idea where your front & back lines lay. Measure your feet, step off your distance & scratch the clay to give yourself an idea of where that line is.

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If teams want me to call the foot out of the box then let them get there early enough and line the field. It has to be real OBVIOUS when no lines are drawn. The only time I draw lines for the batter are situations in which the catcher or the defensive manager are complaining. I might also do so at lower levels if I think the batter is in the wrong place and might jeopardize the catcher. I'm not going to tell the catcher to move back if the batter is out of the imagined box. Jim/NYC

Bfair · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 28, 2002, 11:56am

Quote:

Originally posted by greymule
In in ASA tournament about 20 years ago, I saw a team give up 10 runs in the top of the first inning but then hold the other team and scratch back to 10-9 in the bottom of the seventh. Bases loaded, two out, guy gets a hit to left, driving in two runs to win the game. Everybody piles on the guy in celebration, but when the noise dies down they find the umpire waving everything off and calling the guy out for being out of the box. He claimed that the batter (who had not run up but had planted his right foot and taken the normal one step with his left) had stepped beyond the BACK SIDE line of the box. This with the typical sandy batter's box and no visible lines whatsoever. A "discussion" followed.

A poor job by the umpire to begin with. If he felt the back foot, which in your example never moved, started outside the box and was flagrant enough to warrant an infraction, then he should have corrected the issue before the pitch.

I can't comment on softball, but if a batter leaves the box to hit the ball in hardball then the umpire should kill the play immediately and call the infraction. In your example it's likely you had a $hithou$e for 3 reasons:

Since he could have corrected the issue before the pitch, then he should have done so
It was not immediately called (since you said they celebrated after the score) but should have been
Because there were no drawn lines, making the judgment aspects of the play even more controversial.

I was once told the primary purpose of the rule was to keep a batter from stepping across on an intentional walk and attempting to hit the ball. I don't know the truth of that statement, but it makes sense to me. Otherwise, the box rule seems very nitpicky.

In actuality, it generally needs to be "without a doubt" for me to call that infraction. I have called it on several occasions with no box drawn. Once was on a guy bunting who took several steps forward on an offspeed pitch before the ball arrived. He was close to the grass cutout when he made contact---obviously outside the box. I've had other times when a batter's back foot on a bunt attempt leaves the box and is on the ground totally on or behind the plate, meaning he COULD NOT still be in the box.

One main difference in Fed vs. OBR is that in Fed, the foot touching the plate is an infraction, while in OBR it's not. OBR merely states the foot totally out of the box. Therefore, it's possible Mr. Bigfoot in OBR could still be within the box and touching the plate---not an infraction in OBR but that is an infraction in Fed.

Also, many new officials think it must be a fair ball, but any ball hit while outside the box---fair or foul---is an infraction. That's true for all sets of rules.

Finally, like Jim, I don't adjust any batter when no lines are drawn without the defense requesting it UNLESS he gets so close to the plate that he's almost touching it. That makes it tough on me, so I merely tell him he needs to be 6 inches off the plate----still, I don't draw a line unless requested by offense or defense.

Just my opinion,

Freix

phillycheese · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 28, 2002, 08:49pm

I once called a kid out in a LL game for stepping out of the box. It was late in the game, so the lines were fairly obliterated, but the corners were still intact. The pitcher was serving up creampuffs, so a Dad was telling his kid to step up in the box. The pitch came in fat but started to die so the batter took a giant step and connected. His foot was in my line of vision( cuz we all know we watch the ball and not the batters feet

). Anyway, I was waiving the play dead as I watched the ball sail over the centerfield fence. I looked for a rock to hide underneath, but couldn't find one big enough. I turned the plate over, and strangely enough found instructions on how to umpire, hehe. What I learned was that, yes, it has to be extremely blatant to make this call(which this case was), and also, that when a kid steps up in the box, he's going to get a verbal warning from me. The grief from a call like this is not worth it. So it is best to prevent it in the first place. Lucky for me, the kid had already hit a homer earlier in the game, so I don't think he suffered any permanent emotional scars from having one wiped off the board.
Phil (mostly lurking)

Ump20 · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 28, 2002, 09:52pm

Quote:

Originally posted by phillycheese
I once called a kid out in a LL game for stepping out of the box. It was late in the game, so the lines were fairly obliterated, but the corners were still intact. The pitcher was serving up creampuffs, so a Dad was telling his kid to step up in the box. The pitch came in fat but started to die so the batter took a giant step and connected. His foot was in my line of vision( cuz we all know we watch the ball and not the batters feet ). Anyway, I was waiving the play dead as I watched the ball sail over the centerfield fence. I looked for a rock to hide underneath, but couldn't find one big enough. I turned the plate over, and strangely enough found instructions on how to umpire, hehe. What I learned was that, yes, it has to be extremely blatant to make this call(which this case was), and also, that when a kid steps up in the box, he's going to get a verbal warning from me. The grief from a call like this is not worth it. So it is best to prevent it in the first place. Lucky for me, the kid had already hit a homer earlier in the game, so I don't think he suffered any permanent emotional scars from having one wiped off the board.
Phil (mostly lurking)

Philly, you really should try to CHIP in more in this forum. I believe it was Pete Booth who noted a real lack of activity on this Board. It is important for all of us to share our hide under a rock moments as well as our great success stories. We're never as bad as our worst game and we aren't as good as that last great assignment. I was so proud to be my association's rookie of the year in 1992. Wouldn't you know first game of the next season I was halfway from the parking lot to the field when I realized I had forgotten to take my mask out of the car. I guess it was the Sophomore Jinx at work.

phillycheese · #9 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 03, 2002, 01:42am

Well, I guess halfway from the car to the field without your mask is better than halfway back to your car from the field realizing you didn't have your mask!!!
I once did a game w/out shin gards, of course didn't realize till I went to remove them!! I'm sure everyones done something similar.
Phillycheese

Oh, and thanks for the encouragement.

Ump20 · #10 (**permalink**) Sun Feb 03, 2002, 10:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by phillycheese
Well, I guess halfway from the car to the field without your mask is better than halfway back to your car from the field realizing you didn't have your mask!!!
I once did a game w/out shin gards, of course didn't realize till I went to remove them!! I'm sure everyones done something similar.
Phillycheese

Oh, and thanks for the encouragement.

It was just last summer that I did an entire inning without shin guards. What I think is interesting is that my partner showed up at the last minute which means I wasn't really "ready" for the plate. Sure, if you have no partner ten minutes before the game start getting ready to do the plate because it's now your job. But when both partners get to the field at least 20 minutes or even 30 minutes before game time you're both more relaxed and ready to go. I am equally comfortable on the bases or behind the plate and will usually defer to my partner as to which he wants to do. I have one sort of steady guy doing Connie Mack games. Dave prefers the plate so sometimes he'll do two or three plates for each one that I do.

kchamp · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Feb 04, 2002, 11:48pm

Ump20

I was scorekeeping a game when I saw a plate umpire call the first pitch of an inning, then walking back to the backstop to get his facemask. Before he did that no one noticed.

Kent