unsportsmanlike ?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am just making an observation. I did not read where the rule set was clarified. Verbal Interference is illegal at the NF level. It is possible that OBR was not being used. Just throwing this out there.

Peace

Unless otherwise stated, I normally default to OBR, since after the HS season, it is the most commonly used rules base. The fact that jicecone quoted Rule 4.06 in his reply led me further in that direction.

Bruno, which rules set was being used?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Unless otherwise stated, I normally default to OBR, since after the HS season, it is the most commonly used rules base. The fact that jicecone quoted Rule 4.06 in his reply led me further in that direction.

Bruno, which rules set was being used?

Even if the game had been played under FED rules it's quite a stretch to call verbal interference because someone from the dugout yells "balk."


Tim.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Even if the game had been played under FED rules it's quite a stretch to call verbal interference because someone from the dugout yells "balk."


Tim.

Let me qualify my next statement. I have not picked up a NF rulebook in well over a month.

If I am not mistaken, you can eject a player or coach for yelling "balk" or any other language used to try to induce a balk.

Now if I am wrong, then you can correct me. I have no idea right now where my books are and I am not looking for them. But this is why I asked what level this was.

Peace

[SanDiegoSteve]

I don't think anyone here was questioning whether a player or coach can and should be ejected for yelling "balk." It was the part about calling the runner out which was in question. In OBR, there is no question whatsoever...no out called.

[SanDiegoSteve]

The FED rule (3-3-1o) gives the penalty for calling "Time" or using any command or committing any act for the pupose of causing a balk. It is ejection only, unless it is committed by a runner prior to scoring, where then he is called out.

A baserunner is not called out for the action of a coach or bench player, only if he is the one that was unsportsmanlike.

[ManInBlue]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Let me qualify my next statement. I have not picked up a NF rulebook in well over a month.

If I am not mistaken, you can eject a player or coach for yelling "balk" or any other language used to try to induce a balk.

Now if I am wrong, then you can correct me. I have no idea right now where my books are and I am not looking for them. But this is why I asked what level this was.

Peace

You are correct - I will not spell out each rule, but (NFHS)...

2-21-1 states that INT can be both physical and verbal
3-3-1o states that a anyone associated with the team (player, coach, etc) shall not yell "time" or "balk" to cause a balk - Penalty is EJ of offender
5-1-2d states that this is a DDB situation
8-4-2g states that a runner is out when "his being put out is prevented by an illegal act by anyone connected with the team" - siting 2-21-1, 3-2-2 & 3

8-4-2 might be a pretty good stretch - it would have to be a very close play at 2B to think R1 would have been retired if not for the slowed arm motion of the pitcher. - that's pushing it (even though I stated it originally, as an option).

You do have every right to EJ somebody for the INT - and send R1 back to 1B (b/c you can't have someone advance on a play involving INT)

[SanDiegoSteve]

8-4-2 is indeed a stretch. The yelling of balk was intended to cause the pitcher to balk, not prevent a play on the runner.

[CraigD]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

8-4-2 is indeed a stretch. The yelling of balk was intended to cause the pitcher to balk, not prevent a play on the runner.

Steve,

Is intent relevant? You seem to suggest that if there was no intent to prevent R1 from being put out, then 8-4-2g isn't applicable. I'm not getting that argument.

In any case, wouldn't this be a HTBT situation? None of us has any idea if the pitchers change of delivery influenced the catcher's probability of retiring R1 at second.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Steve,

Is intent relevant? You seem to suggest that if there was no intent to prevent R1 from being put out, then 8-4-2g isn't applicable. I'm not getting that argument.

In any case, wouldn't this be a HTBT situation? None of us has any idea if the pitchers change of delivery influenced the catcher's probability of retiring R1 at second.

I didn't mean to say there was or wasn't intent. The rule that makes it illegal to yell "time" or any other phrase or command addresses the intent to cause a pitcher to balk. I just don't think that just yelling "balk" alone would necessarily "prevent" R1 from being put out. Yes, you would have to be there to judge what effect the yelling of "balk" actually had on the play.

If I hear someone yell "balk" from the dugout, I'm killing the ball and ejecting someone if I know who did it, or warning said dugout if I don't. I no wise will bases be run, or plays made on anyone. I'm sending the runner back to 1st in any case.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by CraigD

Steve,
Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve
8-4-2 is indeed a stretch. The yelling of balk was intended to cause the pitcher to balk, not prevent a play on the runner.
Is intent relevant? You seem to suggest that if there was no intent to prevent R1 from being put out, then 8-4-2g isn't applicable. I'm not getting that argument.

In any case, wouldn't this be a HTBT situation? None of us has any idea if the pitchers change of delivery influenced the catcher's probability of retiring R1 at second.

Intent is irrelevant, probable cause and cause is.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Unless otherwise stated, I normally default to OBR, since after the HS season, it is the most commonly used rules base. The fact that jicecone quoted Rule 4.06 in his reply led me further in that direction.

Bruno, which rules set was being used?

I understand that. The reality is there are places that use NF rules for games with kids at HS age and younger. I know if people in my state are working any Junior High ball, it is not out of the question they would be using only NF rules.

Peace