Brushing off the picthing plate and the bases

[SanDiegoSteve]

Thank you for illustrating my point, fitty.

[greymule]

OK, I see what you mean. In baseball there's a slight disengagement practically simultaneous with the release. The pivot foot comes off just after the other foot hits the ground. (Funny, even as a pitcher, I never considered exactly what was happening during the motion.) But the nature of the overhand delivery makes it virtually impossible to "crow hop," so a replant of the pivot foot isn't an issue.

But in FP, the disengagement occurs much earlier, when the pitcher's arm is beginning to descend behind her. At the time of release, the pivot foot is several feet in front of the rubber, and the umpire has to be watching for a replant. (I do a lot of ASA and NCAA, and it's not difficult to spot.) After a FP game, the "groove" on the mound is long and deep. There's no such groove after a baseball game.

Now assuming a baseball pitcher wanted to pitch underhand, would the FP motion be legal?

it must be clear to the BU that the pitcher does have both feet in contact with the pitcher's plate at the beginning of the pitching motion

You make some good points, VanStanza, but remember that in Fed, the pitchers don't have to have both feet in contact. (However, I hear Fed is considering getting the rule in line with ASA and NCAA.) But the pitchers I see don't start with the right heel in contact with the front of the rubber. They generally put the pivot foot squarely on the rubber so that they can push off with the entire foot. And NCAA requires that at least half the foot be on the top surface of the pitcher's plate, while ASA does not.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by UmpLarryJohnson

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

It's at least as relevant as starting a new thread on Joe Morgan that has nothing to do with rules or umpiring.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It's at least as relevant as starting a new thread on Joe Morgan that has nothing to do with rules or umpiring.

He probably started a new Joe Morgan thread to replace the one that mysteriously disappeared.

[UmpLarryJohnson]

fair enuf mr Bob you got me. i have wiped out that thread. now on with the softyball!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

He probably started a new Joe Morgan thread to replace the one that mysteriously disappeared.

For the record, I didn't delete either Joe Morgan thread.

And, I haven't deleted this thread because it might contribute to an understanding of the arguements we sometimes have over whether baseball umpires should clean the pitcher's rubber and / or bases (and how much of a smitty it makes them if they do so).

[mbyron]

For the record, I deleted my original Joe Morgan thread because it had devolved into an inane pissing contest about whether cancer is funny, instead of an inane pissing contest about whether Joe Morgan is a good announcer.

[greymule]

still dont see why FP softyball is discussed here

It is discussed as it relates to baseball. I am one of many umpires who do both baseball and softball, and I don't try to insulate understanding of one game from understanding of the other. Softball derived from baseball, and in my opinion is best understood in that context. It is instructive, for example, in studying softball rules, such as with regard to INT and OBR, to understand how they differ from (or are similar to) OBR. That principle can work the other way, too.

There are people on the softball board who get upset when someone invokes baseball, but if comparing the rule sets aids in the understanding of some aspect of one or the other, I don't see any problem.

I know there are baseball umps who look down on softball and act as if any discussion of it—much less the officiating of it—would somehow be beneath them. I'm not one of them.

It's not as if somebody decided to use the baseball board to pose a question on field hockey.

I've been participating in these boards for years, and if a thread takes a turn that doesn't interest me, it's easy to ignore it.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Thank you for illustrating my point, fitty.

Welcome, wanna know something that few do?

There is more force applied to the arm of the FP pitcher than the same aged baseball pitcher.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by fitump56

Welcome, wanna know something that few do?

There is more force applied to the arm of the FP pitcher than the same aged baseball pitcher.

I'd disagree with that - as well as virtually every doctor that has studied the topic. I believe most rule sets allow the girls to pitch much more than the guys of the same age. Even LL did a study this past year and that's why they put the boys on pitch count - but not the girls. FP motion puts far less strain on the arm than a baseball motion.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I'd disagree with that - as well as virtually every doctor that has studied the topic.

You may disagree but :

"Dr. Sherry Werner of the Tulane Institute of Sports Medicine has been researching pitching mechanics for 19 years. She studied windmill pitchers as they performed throwing exercises. Different intervals of the pitch were observed, and kinetic calculations of the shoulder joints were calculated and then compared to those of baseball pitchers. What her research found was the stress placed on the shoulder joints was similar to baseball pitchers."

http://softballwest.com/articles/183/

My former employer worked with athletes and had more FP SB F2s than any other athlete in for post-rehab. Sherry was a frequent visitor.

I believe most rule sets allow the girls to pitch much more than the guys of the same age. Even LL did a study this past year and that's why they put the boys on pitch count - but not the girls. FP motion puts far less strain on the arm than a baseball motion.

It does but to a point. The FP pitcher stresses the elbow joint much less (less twisting) and the force is more vertical than horizontal to the shoulder joint. Larger muscles are involved for FP. Nonethe less, the amopunt of force in terms of bodyweight is nearly the same.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by fitump56

You may disagree but :

"Dr. Sherry Werner of the Tulane Institute of Sports Medicine has been researching pitching mechanics for 19 years. She studied windmill pitchers as they performed throwing exercises. Different intervals of the pitch were observed, and kinetic calculations of the shoulder joints were calculated and then compared to those of baseball pitchers. What her research found was the stress placed on the shoulder joints was similar to baseball pitchers."

http://softballwest.com/articles/183/

My former employer worked with athletes and had more FP SB F2s than any other athlete in for post-rehab. Sherry was a frequent visitor.


It does but to a point. The FP pitcher stresses the elbow joint much less (less twisting) and the force is more vertical than horizontal to the shoulder joint. Larger muscles are involved for FP. Nonethe less, the amopunt of force in terms of bodyweight is nearly the same.

Similar? Yes. . . More? (As you said in your post) No. It was your "more stress" that got my attention. Sherry also said that while a player shouldn't throw game after game after game every other weekend - she did say that it was OK occasionally. I don't think any doctor would say that about a baseball motion . . . but I could be wrong on that too.

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by fitump56
You may disagree but :

"Dr. Sherry Werner of the Tulane Institute of Sports Medicine has been researching pitching mechanics for 19 years. She studied windmill pitchers as they performed throwing exercises. Different intervals of the pitch were observed, and kinetic calculations of the shoulder joints were calculated and then compared to those of baseball pitchers. What her research found was the stress placed on the shoulder joints was similar to baseball pitchers."

http://softballwest.com/articles/183/

My former employer worked with athletes and had more FP SB F2s than any other athlete in for post-rehab. Sherry was a frequent visitor.


It does but to a point. The FP pitcher stresses the elbow joint much less (less twisting) and the force is more vertical than horizontal to the shoulder joint. Larger muscles are involved for FP. Nonethe less, the amopunt of force in terms of bodyweight is nearly the same.

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

Similar? Yes. . . More? (As you said in your post) No. It was your "more stress" that got my attention.

Stress (force) and the athletic injury is a complex science of kinesiolgy, biomechanics, anatomical fitness...point being that more force on a joint (which is where force is most influential) does not necesarily mean a higher cause of injury. The FP F2's force is pulling the shoulder joint vertically, Basbeall more to the anterior (horizontally); the former being easier for the human body to handle (decelerate).

See this widely ignored post.


http://forum.officiating.com/showpos...27&postcount=1

Sherry also said that while a player shouldn't throw game after game after game every other weekend - she did say that it was OK occasionally. I don't think any doctor would say that about a baseball motion . . . but I could be wrong on that too.

No, you would be right. Although the forces are equal, the body's ability to handle that force is much superior in the underhand pitch. Note the link above and the inverted palm pointing away from the body midline, a key deceleration for the OH pitcher. Not so good on the elbow.

Sadly, the coaches who have few FP pitchers wear them out b/c "it's easy on the arm". Horse****, my boss saw more girls F2s than boys.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by fitump56

my boss saw more girls F2s than boys.

F2's or F1's?