My eval of a MLB crew

[jkumpire]

Men,

I do not claim to have the reputation to critique an MLB crew, but I had for the first time in my life the ability to see up close an MLB crew, and how they worked. I just thought I'd pass along a few words. I was at the Jake for the afternoon White Sox-Indians game. I sat 20-25 rows from the field, about 1/3 to 1/2 the distance up the 3B line. For the names of the crew, see MLB.com.

1. I love the way these guys work smooth as glass. I knew where everyone would be, what they would be doing, and I really saw U2 hustle for angles even on basic singles to the OF. More comments below, but in short it was a professional job by professional umpires.
2. All their rotations were simple by the book stuff. They had no special rotations, no funky stuff, but there were not a lot of tough plays or wierd stuff in the game either. they only had 2 signals that I saw, but I never looked for INF with R!/R2,, or R1/R2/R3.
3. I noticed two things I questioned about the crew as a whole.
A. The PU used the time play signal of two fingers out on each hand, arms spread wide apart. I dislike that type of signaling for a time play. At school we were taught to just point at the plate with a time play situation, quiet, unobtrusive. Frankly, I'm not sure MLB guys need to give the signal, but if they do, IMO it needs to be more reserved.
B. Several times Tim Chetah, at 3B, would tap the top of his hat with an open palm at the start of a half inning. I believe it was some signal, but the 2B umpire had the stop watch to time things between innings, any idea why?

Most of comments dela with plate work, since the only call with any controversey was dealt with in another thread, and it was not a close play at all.

The PU had a great game, to the extent that Chicago's F2 gave him a nice job signal and word at the end of the game. But he did a few things I didn't like mechanically. First, on about half the pitches in the game, he lowered his head as the pitch came in. I was very surprised at this. His head height was perfect, then sometimes he lowered it. I don't know why, or if it is just a habit, but it didn't look good, and he might have trouble later.

Second, he actually used two different plate stances in the game. For RH batters, he was heel/toe as perfect as any newbie from Evans or Wendelstedt. For LH hitters (every one), he squared up his feet and shoulders, and actually put both hands on F2's back, on either side of F2's backbone. It looked like he was working over the shoulder of F2, and both F2's were bigger than he was. I wish I could ask him why he did this, there was no reason to use two stances.

Third, twice during the game he made it a point to talk to F1. Once, as the Indians came off the field he roamed up the 3B line past his normal postion betweeen innings and intercepted the Cleveland F1. They talked for about 30 seconds. Why, I wonder? Later in the game, after a Cleveland 2B, he walked out to the mound, inspected the ball, threw it out and handed the Sox F1 a new ball. There was no reason for him to go out, nobody asked him to inspect F1. Strange thing he did.

Fourth it was interesting to see his strike call, he used four different ones during the game. Most swinging strikes were a fist and extended arm at waist level forward. To RH batters, he would use a hammer, or he would use a point to his right. To LH batters, his strike call was right hand pointing across his body to his left, turning his head and shoulders. I wonder why he did this.

After every pitch, he put his hands behind his back, until he got set for the next pitch, and the only time he gave a count was 3-2. I really liked his foul tip call, he took two big steps back from F2, rubbed his RH across his L arm twice, then made a hammer. Looked really good. It is not how I was taught to do it, but I am going to try it.

I also liked where he went on infield plays. At pro school we were taught to go straight up the 1B line, following the BR, or the 3B line when required. The PU today was about 5 steps inside the line running parallel to it. Obviously, U1 had any overthrow resposibilities, and balls in front of the plate he can't do it. But in a 2 man crew this is a great place to be if you decide that on 1B overthrows the PU covers the BR. Also, some fields are crowned or the baseline is a pain to deal with, running inside is a good idea. The PU also did this when he had to rotate to 3B when U3 went out or rotated to 2B. I'm going to try this.

The only other thing I wasn't sure about mechanically was what U2 did on ground balls. His gig was to find a perfect angle to see the 2B play. He did find that angle, but he turned his back away from the throw, every time there was a force play at 2B started by F5 or F6. Nice if you can get away with it, but even MLB guys throw balls inside the baseline badly, and he would get drilled and never see it coming. But, he got his angle.

I loved U2's hustle on every fly ball. He did get almost too close to F4 or F6 on a great catch by Cleveland's F6 on a blooper in shrot center. But it was
instructive how he always wanted a 90 deg. angle on all OF throws/plays at 2B he had. And he always got there.

It was also instructive for our s******s, that the only time in the game any of the four guys met between innings was when U1 and U2 met the ground crew guy who brought them water in the mid 8th inning. That is not a lot a lot fo talk, even for MLB crews. Talk only when you need to.

Just a few thoiughts, any reactions?

[UES]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Men,

I do not claim to have the reputation to critique an MLB crew, but I had for the first time in my life the ability to see up close an MLB crew, and how they worked. I just thought I'd pass along a few words. I was at the Jake for the afternoon White Sox-Indians game. I sat 20-25 rows from the field, about 1/3 to 1/2 the distance up the 3B line. For the names of the crew, see MLB.com.

1. ..., and I really saw U2 hustle for angles even on basic singles to the OF. ...

May have had something to do with U2 was Rob Drake, a AAA fill in who is a whisker away from getting the next full time job in the bigs - probably a little extra motivation to give it your all every night

2. All their rotations were simple by the book stuff. They had no special rotations, no funky stuff, but there were not a lot of tough plays or wierd stuff in the game either. they only had 2 signals that I saw, but I never looked for INF with R!/R2,, or R1/R2/R3.

3. I noticed two things I questioned about the crew as a whole.
A. The PU used the time play signal of two fingers out on each hand, arms spread wide apart. I dislike that type of signaling for a time play.
At school we were taught to just point at the plate with a time play situation, quiet, unobtrusive. Frankly, I'm not sure MLB guys need to give the signal, but if they do, IMO it needs to be more reserved.

At the MLB level, the guys stray away from many mechanics that were taught at umpire school. Umpire school mechanics are used to evaluate people and prepare them for lower levels of minor league baseball. Not to mention that many things have changed since those guys attended school

B. Several times Tim Chetah, at 3B, would tap the top of his hat with an open palm at the start of a half inning. I believe it was some signal, but the 2B umpire had the stop watch to time things between innings, any idea why?

Since Tschida is the CC, maybe he gives the signal to start the inning - I don't know

Most of comments dela with plate work, since the only call with any controversey was dealt with in another thread, and it was not a close play at all.

The PU had a great game, to the extent that Chicago's F2 gave him a nice job signal and word at the end of the game. But he did a few things I didn't like mechanically. First, on about half the pitches in the game, he lowered his head as the pitch came in. I was very surprised at this. His head height was perfect, then sometimes he lowered it. I don't know why, or if it is just a habit, but it didn't look good, and he might have trouble later.

Some big league guys track the ball with their head rather than their eyes (ie Mike Reily). Another "old school" method taught back in the day. Bottom line, when you've seen as many pitches as Jim Joyce has (along with many of the other MLB umpires), mechanics go out the window. They don't really care how you stand or what you do back there - just as long as you get the pitches right

Second, he actually used two different plate stances in the game. For RH batters, he was heel/toe as perfect as any newbie from Evans or Wendelstedt. For LH hitters (every one), he squared up his feet and shoulders, and actually put both hands on F2's back, on either side of F2's backbone. It looked like he was working over the shoulder of F2, and both F2's were bigger than he was. I wish I could ask him why he did this, there was no reason to use two stances.

Once again, see the answer above. Whatever they need to do to get pitches right.

Third, twice during the game he made it a point to talk to F1. Once, as the Indians came off the field he roamed up the 3B line past his normal postion betweeen innings and intercepted the Cleveland F1. They talked for about 30 seconds. Why, I wonder? Later in the game, after a Cleveland 2B, he walked out to the mound, inspected the ball, threw it out and handed the Sox F1 a new ball. There was no reason for him to go out, nobody asked him to inspect F1. Strange thing he did.

Although you had good seats, being on the field and in the game is totally different. Don't read into things too much because things are much different at their level. As for him throwing the ball out - perhaps it hit the wall or the ball was hit off the end of the bat. There are many reasons for a ball to be throw out at the professional level, let alone the MLB lever

Fourth it was interesting to see his strike call, he used four different ones during the game. Most swinging strikes were a fist and extended arm at waist level forward. To RH batters, he would use a hammer, or he would use a point to his right. To LH batters, his strike call was right hand pointing across his body to his left, turning his head and shoulders. I wonder why he did this.

[B]Personal style - again, it doesn't matter as long as he gets the pitches right[B]

After every pitch, he put his hands behind his back, until he got set for the next pitch,

Once again, personal style.... although I think it looks like ****.

and the only time he gave a count was 3-2.

Many guys, especially at the professional level, only give the count on 1-2, 2-1 and 3-2. With scoreboards, no one really needs to know the count on every pitch

I really liked his foul tip call, he took two big steps back from F2, rubbed his RH across his L arm twice, then made a hammer. Looked really good. It is not how I was taught to do it, but I am going to try it.

I also liked where he went on infield plays. At pro school we were taught to go straight up the 1B line, following the BR, or the 3B line when required. The PU today was about 5 steps inside the line running parallel to it. Obviously, U1 had any overthrow resposibilities, and balls in front of the plate he can't do it. But in a 2 man crew this is a great place to be if you decide that on 1B overthrows the PU covers the BR. Also, some fields are crowned or the baseline is a pain to deal with, running inside is a good idea. The PU also did this when he had to rotate to 3B when U3 went out or rotated to 2B. I'm going to try this.

The only other thing I wasn't sure about mechanically was what U2 did on ground balls. His gig was to find a perfect angle to see the 2B play. He did find that angle, but he turned his back away from the throw, every time there was a force play at 2B started by F5 or F6. Nice if you can get away with it, but even MLB guys throw balls inside the baseline badly, and he would get drilled and never see it coming. But, he got his angle.

I'm sure he doesn't turn his back on f5 or f6 until he reads a true throw. The reason he positions himself like that is so he can see if f4 holds second base when he stretches off the left side of the bag

I loved U2's hustle on every fly ball. He did get almost too close to F4 or F6 on a great catch by Cleveland's F6 on a blooper in shrot center. But it was
instructive how he always wanted a 90 deg. angle on all OF throws/plays at 2B he had. And he always got there.

Drake is nails!!!!!!!! That is why him or Gooch will probably get the next spot in the bigs

It was also instructive for our s******s, that the only time in the game any of the four guys met between innings was when U1 and U2 met the ground crew guy who brought them water in the mid 8th inning. That is not a lot a lot fo talk, even for MLB crews. Talk only when you need to.

Just a few thoiughts, any reactions?

I can't stress enought that watching MLB umpires to learn how to umpire is like watching NBA basketball players to learn how to play basketball. MLB umpires probably break more umpire school rules than they follow. Their game is totally different that the amatuer game and thus, they officiate things very differently. You want to learn how to umpire a 2 man system, go watch an A or long A level minor league game. You want to learn 3 man, go watch a AA minor league game or a Conference D-1 NCAA game. But don't watch MLB umpires to learn how to umpire at the amatuer level - they are two different animals

Just my opinions.

U.E.S.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UES

Just my opinions.

U.E.S.

Reading the original description, I knew it was Joyce behind the plate.

His hustle is something else for a guy who has no reason to run around except for his own personal pride.

And he can be heard in the upper deck, too.

[jkumpire]

Yes, I have been around the block too, and I know that MLB guys are not he guys to use to teach newbies how to umpire. But, what I saw was interesting, at least to me so I posted. I went to school before any of these guys did, so I am somewhat familiar with how things have changed over time.

Just a few thoughts:

1. I only give the count at 2-1 and 3-2. I thought that most guys give it only then, not just MLB.

2. If he was just chatting the F1's up, fine. But when he talked to Cleveland's F1 he had just given up 3 runs that inning, and the time he went to the mound to talk to the Sox F1, he just had an Indian rip a shot to the wall. No matter what level you are, he needs to stay away from the mound unless F1 is hurt or there is a rule problem or a meeting breakup. He's asking for trouble IMO doing that. To change balls, get to the plate and switch with F1 there. I'm glad he got away with it!

I was also surprised how fast he was in breaking up conferences. Anytime there was a conference with a trip to the mound, he cleaned off the plate, then immediately went to break it up. I usually give them :30-1:00 before I do that.

If it was Drake at 2B, he reads real quick, because he turned his back to F5 or F6 immediately. I was watching him only the first time he did it, and his turn was immediate. No matter who you are, you still need to track the ball more than that.

But as we both said, on that level, nobody cares how you do it, just get it done right.

Rich,

If it was Joyce, I only heard him on a few pitches. But then I had a set of school teachers talking shop behind me, and I'm not sure you could hear a nuclear device going off over them...

[UES]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

...And yes, I know I wasn't on the field, but that doesn't mean I don't have a small clue as to what was going on on the grass.

Key word in that sentence is SMALL

1. I only give the count at 2-1 and 3-2. I thought that most guys give it only then, not just MLB.

You forgot 1-2 also

2. If he was just chatting the F1's up, fine. But when he talked to Cleveland's F1 he had just given up 3 runs that inning, and the time he went to the mound to talk to the Sox F1, he just had an Indian rip a shot to the wall. No matter what level you are, he needs to stay away from the mound unless F1 is hurt or there is a rule problem or a meeting breakup. He's asking for trouble IMO doing that. To change balls, get to the plate and switch with F1 there.

Perhaps he was doing some preventative officiating like maybe he balled a close pitch that would have been strike three. Then the next pitch was ripped for a runs scoring double and the pitcher was pissed off and told Joyce "those f%ckin runs are on you Jim". So rather than Jim making a specatacle out of the incident, he went up to the mound or met him on the foul line and quietly but sternly said something like "shut you f%ckin mouth and watch your f%ckin mannerisms out there or that will be your last batter you face today". Once again, things are done differently at their level and a guy with Joyce's experience level probably does things you would not do at the amatuer level - so your opinion on this situation is not relevant because your basing your opinion on how you handle an amateur game as compared to how Joyce handles a professional game

I was also surprised how fast he was in breaking up conferences. Anytime there was a conference with a trip to the mound, he cleaned off the plate, then immediately went to break it up. I usually give them :30-1:00 before I do that.

Once again, whatever time amount you give at the amatuer level is totally different than what MLB guys give at the professional level. There are reasons why umpires at the professional level give as little as 10 seconds for a trip or at times as much as 1:15 depending on the situation

If it was Drake at 2B, he reads real quick, because he turned his back to F5 or F6 immediately. I was watching him only the first time he did it, and his turn was immediate. No matter who you are, you still need to track the ball more than that.


Believe me, Drake doesn't do anything quick - the guy is one of most solid MLB Umpire prospects both on and off the field. There is a reason for when and why he sets up the way he does. But I'll be sure to pass on your thoughts regarding his so called need to track the ball longer

But as we both said, on that level, nobody cares how you do it, just get it done right.

By the way, what school did you go to Al Somers in the '40s or Bill Kinnamon in the '50s?

[UES]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

....His hustle is something else for a guy who has no reason to run around except for his own personal pride.

and for a guy who smokes like a chimminy, he moves very well and has some pretty good stamina

UES

[SAump]

JK, I applaud your efforts for discussing the finer aspects of MLB officiating. Along with commentary from UES, it provides lower level umpires with legitimate goals for improvement. Many of us {myself for one} are so focused on tweaking basic mechanics and ideal positioning, that we sometimes forget that through-self evaluation like these; there may still be plenty of room left for improvement.

[ToGreySt]

On a side note, what are the rules that MLB uses as far as time between innings, I had no idea that one of the umps had a stopwatch

is this done in NCAA also?

[TussAgee11]

2:05 seconds in between innings on locally televised games
2:35 on national televised games.

Eliminates the silly television referee that you see in football games, wearing a red hat I believe.