I Guess I Deserved it, or Maybe Not.....

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Again, it does not pay to say even the most simple of facts on this website.

No offense Tim, but to consider it bravery to yell insults at an umpire is ridiculous.
I challenge you to find anyone, who is not a personal friend of the OP, that would call this brave.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Knowing Tim as I do he made a well thoughtout and measured response to the calling umpire. He was "probably" not an over-the-top "daddy" type responder.

So would you salute a coach for bravery that makes the same well thought out and measured comment to you?

Originally Posted by Tim C

I said a "certain amount" bravery. And I stand by that.

Tim knew both that as his position as an umpire he could be criticize (or even penalized) for speaking his mind.

I would call that a lack of discernment, not a measure of bravery.

Originally Posted by Tim C

The decision to not only confront the original issue but to also bring it here for dicussion showed a "certain amount" of bravery.

It does take guts to expose this type of dirty laundry to fellow officials, but your first reference to bravery was regarding his unsportsmanlike comment to the umpire, not his soul purging post.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Don, after reading your posts for some time there isn't much we agree on . . . this is just another one of those issues.

And despite your disagreement I bravely post on

[SanDiegoSteve]

Don,

As I pointed out, he came forward here and admitted his error in judgment. He let his emotions dictate his behavior. He began his post by saying he felt he possibly deserved what happened. I think the umpire in question is an idiot, and shouldn't be allowed on a baseball field. People like this are not fellow umpires IMO. They are clowns masquerading as umpires, and know nothing about the game.

Please don't even try to say that you have never hollered at an umpire before, because I'm just not buying it. That goes for the rest of you sanctimonious liars out there. You've all booed the umpire before. You may not have done what Tim did, but I read here all the time about how so-and-so blew the call on the MLB game, and how they shouldn't even have a job, etc.

We criticize other umpires all the time. Tim just got caught up in the moment. He came here, the one place he can go to confess his sins, and everyone is taking pot-shots at him now. He's a big boy, and he can take the assaults, but remember that he had the courage to admit his mistake.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

A few disconnected thoughts here:

I guess I would ask: "if I was a high school basketball coach and a working umpire would I be held to a different standard while coaching my team?"

IMO, yes absolutely. You SHOULD be held to a different standard. You have first-hand knowledge of how difficult it is to officiate.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Would I not be able to speak my mind freely to a working basketball official?

If "speaking freely" means "getting personal" with the official (so as to draw a technical) I would say "no". If speaking freely means addressing your concerns with the referee in a professional manner...then "yes".

For example, I umpire with a guy (who is a very, very good Div. 1 major-conference college umpire) who complains about (baseball) head coaches. He will say to other umpires that "that coach is a no good such-and-such" and "this coach is a no good xxxxxx" . Which is fine...we all say things like that about certain coaches to other umpires away from the field.

However, this same umpire also coaches a high school girls basketball team and he also likes to tell us stories about how proud he was to get tossed twice during the regular season because "the officials were just horrible and they needed to know it."

You know what? I have little respect for someone with that double-standard. It pisses me off, frankly. Don't moan and groan as an umpire about a head coach because "all he does is b itch and moan and whine all game long" and then go out and do the same thing when you're coaching basketball in the off-season.

Frankly, if I'm umpiring in a game with a guy who is also an *** hole coach (toward officials) ..I may just be a step slower in helping him out when they're ready to burn the dugouts on him. You know: give him a chance to stand there and see how he likes being the official in that situation.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Let's go a step further: if I pay to go to a major league game and an umpire (crew) seriously misapplies a rule do you folks expect me to do or say nothing if asked by another person in the crowd?

No. But I do expect that you won't shout out at the umpire in a manner to draw attention to yourself so that everyone in the stands now knows that another umpire thinks the umpires on the field screwed up.

[I realize that in a MLB park not everyone in the stands will hear you (except in DC) or know you're an umpire...but in the OP...or at a high school game, this is a very real possibility.]

Originally Posted by Tim C

4- In closing was Tim wrong?

Yes, he was.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I think the umpire in question is an idiot, and shouldn't be allowed on a baseball field. People like this are not fellow umpires IMO. They are clowns masquerading as umpires, and know nothing about the game.

An umpire screws up a rule(maybe) and he's now an idiot and a clown? Methinks that you and Tim really do have a lot in common. What you both have in common is a complete lack of professionalism.

Whether the umpire was right or wrong isn't really a factor. What really does matter is that you've got a supposedly fellow umpire publicly back-stabbing one of his supposed brethren. We expect that from coaches and fans. We don't expect it from fellow officials.

I wouldn't like to share a field with either of you. I'd be afraid to turn my back.

Sad.......

[Tim C]

If I was a basketball coach I would be paid to win (and possibly be fired if I ran a losing program) and therefore I would contend, over a cold adult beverage, that I should be held to no higher standard than any other coach.

Why should I be at a disadvantage?

While I don't wear these two hats I would contend that my JOB allows me certain leeway . . .

I Like Turtles,

[lawump]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Don,

Please don't even try to say that you have never hollered at an umpire before, because I'm just not buying it.

I admit it: as a child I yelled at umpires.

I have never yelled at any umpire since the day I became one. EVER. I've had discussions with them after the game, WHEN I'M THERE EVALUATING THEM FOR OUR ASSOCIATION...but if I'm there just as a fan (i.e. my son's games) I just let it go.

If you want to call me a liar go ahead, that's simply a crutch to justify your own behavior.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Tim C

4- In closing was Tim wrong? Maybe . . . but he was only 50% of the incorrect behavior.[/I]

I can understand poor officiating. It happens. We have to use people some times that just aren't very good. I can also understand good officials missing a call or even mis-interpreting a rule. I can't understand any circumstance that would condone any sports official publicly crapping all over another sports official on what was basically a judgment call.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by lawump

I admit it: as a child I yelled at umpires.

I have never yelled at any umpire since the day I became one. EVER. I've had discussions with them after the game, WHEN I'M THERE EVALUATING THEM FOR OUR ASSOCIATION...but if I'm there just as a fan (i.e. my son's games) I just let it go.

If you want to call me a liar go ahead, that's simply a crutch to justify your own behavior.

You're telling me you've never booed along with your buddies at a major league baseball game? You just sat there and said nothing. Wow, that's restraint.

When I umpire, I fully expect to be booed, as it is rich in tradition of this grand game.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I can understand poor officiating. It happens. We have to use people some times that just aren't very good. I can also understand good officials missing a call or even mis-interpreting a rule. I can't understand any circumstance that would condone any sports official publicly crapping all over another sports official on what was basically a judgment call.

JR, please explain how misinterpreting a rule is basically a judgment call. The pitcher was in the windup position, stepped back with his free foot, then threw to a fielder to tag Tim's son for an out. That isn't a judgment call, it is a rule misinterpretation by the umpire.

[lawump]

I've been known to get popcorn and peanuts thrown at me when my family (diehard Red Sox fans) are at a baseball game and they're all screaming at the umpire and I'm defending him.

Frankly, as for MLB, maybe because I knew or know enough of them from my days in pro ball...it makes it pretty hard for me to boo and or yell at them. Its always easier to yell at a stranger than someone you lived and traveled with for 6 months, or who was in your umpire class, or was in the same minor league as you or was your teacher/mentor at umpire school and after.

In all my time in pro ball there was only 1 guy who I couldn't stand and in whom I found no redeeming qualities...we nearly came to blows one spring...but while I hope to God he doesn't get promoted from the reserve list ahead of some other persons on that list...I still can't bring myself to boo him.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Don,

As I pointed out, he came forward here and admitted his error in judgment. He let his emotions dictate his behavior. He began his post by saying he felt he possibly deserved what happened. I think the umpire in question is an idiot, and shouldn't be allowed on a baseball field. People like this are not fellow umpires IMO. They are clowns masquerading as umpires, and know nothing about the game.

Please don't even try to say that you have never hollered at an umpire before, because I'm just not buying it. That goes for the rest of you sanctimonious liars out there. You've all booed the umpire before. You may not have done what Tim did, but I read here all the time about how so-and-so blew the call on the MLB game, and how they shouldn't even have a job, etc.

We criticize other umpires all the time. Tim just got caught up in the moment. He came here, the one place he can go to confess his sins, and everyone is taking pot-shots at him now. He's a big boy, and he can take the assaults, but remember that he had the courage to admit his mistake.

SDS,
Please reread my posts, comprehension is essential.
Though I'm not in agreement with what Tim said, I have not been piling on.
My posts have been aimed specifically at Tim's #1 apologist Tim C who called his outburst an act of bravery.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by lawump

IMO, yes absolutely. You SHOULD be held to a different standard. You have first-hand knowledge of how difficult it is to officiate.



If "speaking freely" means "getting personal" with the official (so as to draw a technical) I would say "no". If speaking freely means addressing your concerns with the referee in a professional manner...then "yes".

For example, I umpire with a guy (who is a very, very good Div. 1 major-conference college umpire) who complains about (baseball) head coaches. He will say to other umpires that "that coach is a no good such-and-such" and "this coach is a no good xxxxxx" . Which is fine...we all say things like that about certain coaches to other umpires away from the field.

However, this same umpire also coaches a high school girls basketball team and he also likes to tell us stories about how proud he was to get tossed twice during the regular season because "the officials were just horrible and they needed to know it."

You know what? I have little respect for someone with that double-standard. It pisses me off, frankly. Don't moan and groan as an umpire about a head coach because "all he does is b itch and moan and whine all game long" and then go out and do the same thing when you're coaching basketball in the off-season.

Frankly, if I'm umpiring in a game with a guy who is also an *** hole coach (toward officials) ..I may just be a step slower in helping him out when they're ready to burn the dugouts on him. You know: give him a chance to stand there and see how he likes being the official in that situation.



No. But I do expect that you won't shout out at the umpire in a manner to draw attention to yourself so that everyone in the stands now knows that another umpire thinks the umpires on the field screwed up.

[I realize that in a MLB park not everyone in the stands will hear you (except in DC) or know you're an umpire...but in the OP...or at a high school game, this is a very real possibility.]



Yes, he was.

I hate rats as much as the next guy, but I expect a coach to be a coach during a game. I don't care if he's a professional or high level college official -- not even if he's an official of the same sport.

Why should that coach be held to a higher standard because sometimes he's an umpire? During the game, his job is coach. He should feel free to act like any other coach and my methods of dealing with him should be no different than the methods I use when someone else is coaching.

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

[Tim C]

"In all my time in pro ball there was only 1 guy who I couldn't stand and in whom I found no redeeming qualities...we nearly came to blows one spring . . ."

I guess every class has one of "these guys" (@ Brinkman it was a minor league instructor that lied, cheated and attempted intentionally to place certain students in a bad light).

I took care of ours (while there were no blows I did push him in the chest hard enough that he lost his balance).

Since that January anyone in our class has always called "problem umpires": "Oh he's just a Whitehead.")

Just for the record I don't even cheer at professional games so there would be no reason to comment on the umpire's qualities.

I Like Turtles,

[lawump]

Tim C,

Frankly, I can't go to ANY game and watch it as a "fan". When the ball is in play, I'm always watching the umpires anyways.

From one Brinkman grad to another,

[Tim C]

Maybe it is you that needs to learn to read:

I thought I was clear when I said the bravery was to:

1) Originally face the issue knowing well he could be in trouble for what he did and,

2) Being brave enough to bring this issue to our attention to discuss.

I did not say, nor did I mean to say, the discussion items were brave.

Again, we just can't agree on umpiring and that is fine as we will never, thankfully, work a game together.

I Like Turtles,