I Guess I Deserved it, or Maybe Not.....

[blueskysblue]

What a farce ! A pitcher that doesn't know the rudimentary skills. Obviously a coach that hasn't coached. An umpire that doesnt't know / enforce the most basic rules and thinks he has the authority to control fans. A fan - dad - umpire that can't stop himself from trying to control a game that he isn't working.

Yeah, I've seen all those, just not at the same time, in one game. I have "ejected" fans, meaning I've asked league / school administration to remove said fan due to him/her being out of control and having a negative impact on the game, players, coaches, etc.

LawUmp: Do you monitor all other private actions of umpires in your association? What and how they drive, to and from the game? Whether or not they "have a few" in the parking lot or at a local "watering hole" after a game? How they spend the money received for umpiring? Hmm. Withholding a recommendation for playoff assignments based upon perceived unethical behavior while attending a game as a fan? Sound like you have one tough association.

Had I been the fan - dad- umpire, rather than publicly jumping on that "umpire", I would have provided written documentation to his assignor / association regarding his lack of basic skills. Even if I had "screwed up" and jumped on him from the stands, I would have written him up when he conducted himself inappropriately two years later. That's a long, long time to remember a slight and hold a grudge. From many of the posts here, as umpires most of us would eject a coach or player that got in our face about an issue from a previous game; but we "support" a fellow umpire that commits the same infraction? How ethical is that, gentlemen?

[Tim C]

A few disconnected thoughts here:

1- Life is about choices. Tim selected to support his son and made a choice to handle it as he did. While I would never place myself in his position I do support him making the choice he did . . . he did something rather than nothing . . . that takes a certain amount of bravery.

2- I umpire with "Rei" . . . please recognize that he is a "by the book" umpire. He calls all the rules equally and fairly in each game. While "Rei" and I will never see eye-to-eye on many, many issues he chooses to deal with happenings in his game in a consistent and strong willed way.

3- I am amazed at the venom from some posters on an official speaking out in a manner that does not support a workig official. I guess I would ask: "if I was a high school basketball coach and a working umpire would I be held to a different standard while coaching my team?" Would I not be able to speak my mind freely to a working basketball official? Let's go a step further: if I pay to go to a major league game and an umpire (crew) seriously misapplies a rule do you folks expect me to do or say nothing if asked by another person in the crowd?

4- In closing was Tim wrong? Maybe . . . but he was only 50% of the incorrect behavior.

Regards,

[kraine27]

IMO, there is absolutely no excuse for any umpire (or official for that matter)at any level to take the field/court of play and not have an understanding of the rules. We all have or will make mistakes in judgement but to simply not know or understand the rules is simply lazy. In the original game, where was the PU to help with the balk call (or lack of in this case)? The illegal move got by both of them?

I am now a parent/umpire watching my daughter play softball. It is very difficult watching umpires work softball games that are very clearly in it for the money. There is no excuse for lack of rules knowledge. I can understand a bad positioning or bad judgement, those things happen, but not bad rules knowledge.

I am curious if the BU's association or crew chief or UIC (whatever they are called in your area) had a conversation and training time with this young umpire. I wonder if the BU would have even been receptive of another umpire talking to him about his screw up?

IMHO, two wrongs in this story. I believe the poster has learned and growen from his mistake, has the BU?

[PeteBooth]

There is no excuse for lack of rules knowledge. I can understand a bad positioning or bad judgement, those things happen, but not bad rules knowledge.

How easily people forget

Remember the Indian / O's game.

The point is "it happens to the best of them"

One is judged or let me re-phrase should be judged on a COMPLETE body of work not ONE call or Lack of a call. Look at Mr. Denkinger who received death threats and will be forever remembered for that call at first base, but if one looks at Mr. Denikinger's complete body of work he was regarded by his peers as one of the best.

Balks even blatent one's sometimes are missed. They happen in a heartbeat not because we do not know the rule but just like being out of position we simply "missed it" There are times when I believe most of us said to ourselves "I cannot believe I missed that one - He balked" but we didn't call it.

In Tim's OP we do not know how the ENTIRE game played out. Was this BU who made the no call in position the majority of times to make "other' calls. It's one thing to "get on the official" it's quite another to say You are not worth the $55.00

Pete Booth

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Tim C

A few disconnected thoughts here:

[I]1- Life is about choices. Tim selected to support his son and made a choice to handle it as he did. While I would never place myself in his position I do support him making the choice he did . . . he did something rather than nothing . . . that takes a certain amount of bravery.

A little over the top don't you think?

If an irate parent yelling insults at an ump is bravery then what must we call the coach who whines, yells and insults the ump for a call on a boy who was not his son and then gets tossed?
The ultimate hero? A martyr? A christlike figure willing to be sacrificed at the alter of bad umping?

Bravery is best left out of this discussion.

As for support, I think most can agree that the best support he could be for his son is just being there and encouraging. Not teaching by example unsportsmanlike behavior is ok when calls don't go your way

[Tim C]

"The ultimate hero? A martyr? A christlike figure willing to be sacrificed at the alter of bad umping?"

Again, it does not pay to say even the most simple of facts on this website.

Knowing Tim as I do he made a well thoughtout and measured response to the calling umpire. He was "probably" not an over-the-top "daddy" type responder.

I said a "certain amount" bravery. And I stand by that.

Tim knew both that as his position as an umpire he could be criticize (or even penalized) for speaking his mind.

The decision to not only confront the original issue but to also bring it here for dicussion showed a "certain amount" of bravery.

Don, after reading your posts for some time there isn't much we agree on . . . this is just another one of those issues.

Regards,

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Tim C

Again, it does not pay to say even the most simple of facts on this website.

No offense Tim, but to consider it bravery to yell insults at an umpire is ridiculous.
I challenge you to find anyone, who is not a personal friend of the OP, that would call this brave.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Knowing Tim as I do he made a well thoughtout and measured response to the calling umpire. He was "probably" not an over-the-top "daddy" type responder.

So would you salute a coach for bravery that makes the same well thought out and measured comment to you?

Originally Posted by Tim C

I said a "certain amount" bravery. And I stand by that.

Tim knew both that as his position as an umpire he could be criticize (or even penalized) for speaking his mind.

I would call that a lack of discernment, not a measure of bravery.

Originally Posted by Tim C

The decision to not only confront the original issue but to also bring it here for dicussion showed a "certain amount" of bravery.

It does take guts to expose this type of dirty laundry to fellow officials, but your first reference to bravery was regarding his unsportsmanlike comment to the umpire, not his soul purging post.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Don, after reading your posts for some time there isn't much we agree on . . . this is just another one of those issues.

And despite your disagreement I bravely post on

[SanDiegoSteve]

Don,

As I pointed out, he came forward here and admitted his error in judgment. He let his emotions dictate his behavior. He began his post by saying he felt he possibly deserved what happened. I think the umpire in question is an idiot, and shouldn't be allowed on a baseball field. People like this are not fellow umpires IMO. They are clowns masquerading as umpires, and know nothing about the game.

Please don't even try to say that you have never hollered at an umpire before, because I'm just not buying it. That goes for the rest of you sanctimonious liars out there. You've all booed the umpire before. You may not have done what Tim did, but I read here all the time about how so-and-so blew the call on the MLB game, and how they shouldn't even have a job, etc.

We criticize other umpires all the time. Tim just got caught up in the moment. He came here, the one place he can go to confess his sins, and everyone is taking pot-shots at him now. He's a big boy, and he can take the assaults, but remember that he had the courage to admit his mistake.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I think the umpire in question is an idiot, and shouldn't be allowed on a baseball field. People like this are not fellow umpires IMO. They are clowns masquerading as umpires, and know nothing about the game.

An umpire screws up a rule(maybe) and he's now an idiot and a clown? Methinks that you and Tim really do have a lot in common. What you both have in common is a complete lack of professionalism.

Whether the umpire was right or wrong isn't really a factor. What really does matter is that you've got a supposedly fellow umpire publicly back-stabbing one of his supposed brethren. We expect that from coaches and fans. We don't expect it from fellow officials.

I wouldn't like to share a field with either of you. I'd be afraid to turn my back.

Sad.......

[lawump]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Don,

Please don't even try to say that you have never hollered at an umpire before, because I'm just not buying it.

I admit it: as a child I yelled at umpires.

I have never yelled at any umpire since the day I became one. EVER. I've had discussions with them after the game, WHEN I'M THERE EVALUATING THEM FOR OUR ASSOCIATION...but if I'm there just as a fan (i.e. my son's games) I just let it go.

If you want to call me a liar go ahead, that's simply a crutch to justify your own behavior.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Don,

As I pointed out, he came forward here and admitted his error in judgment. He let his emotions dictate his behavior. He began his post by saying he felt he possibly deserved what happened. I think the umpire in question is an idiot, and shouldn't be allowed on a baseball field. People like this are not fellow umpires IMO. They are clowns masquerading as umpires, and know nothing about the game.

Please don't even try to say that you have never hollered at an umpire before, because I'm just not buying it. That goes for the rest of you sanctimonious liars out there. You've all booed the umpire before. You may not have done what Tim did, but I read here all the time about how so-and-so blew the call on the MLB game, and how they shouldn't even have a job, etc.

We criticize other umpires all the time. Tim just got caught up in the moment. He came here, the one place he can go to confess his sins, and everyone is taking pot-shots at him now. He's a big boy, and he can take the assaults, but remember that he had the courage to admit his mistake.

SDS,
Please reread my posts, comprehension is essential.
Though I'm not in agreement with what Tim said, I have not been piling on.
My posts have been aimed specifically at Tim's #1 apologist Tim C who called his outburst an act of bravery.

[Tim C]

If I was a basketball coach I would be paid to win (and possibly be fired if I ran a losing program) and therefore I would contend, over a cold adult beverage, that I should be held to no higher standard than any other coach.

Why should I be at a disadvantage?

While I don't wear these two hats I would contend that my JOB allows me certain leeway . . .

I Like Turtles,

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Tim C

A few disconnected thoughts here:

I guess I would ask: "if I was a high school basketball coach and a working umpire would I be held to a different standard while coaching my team?"

IMO, yes absolutely. You SHOULD be held to a different standard. You have first-hand knowledge of how difficult it is to officiate.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Would I not be able to speak my mind freely to a working basketball official?

If "speaking freely" means "getting personal" with the official (so as to draw a technical) I would say "no". If speaking freely means addressing your concerns with the referee in a professional manner...then "yes".

For example, I umpire with a guy (who is a very, very good Div. 1 major-conference college umpire) who complains about (baseball) head coaches. He will say to other umpires that "that coach is a no good such-and-such" and "this coach is a no good xxxxxx" . Which is fine...we all say things like that about certain coaches to other umpires away from the field.

However, this same umpire also coaches a high school girls basketball team and he also likes to tell us stories about how proud he was to get tossed twice during the regular season because "the officials were just horrible and they needed to know it."

You know what? I have little respect for someone with that double-standard. It pisses me off, frankly. Don't moan and groan as an umpire about a head coach because "all he does is b itch and moan and whine all game long" and then go out and do the same thing when you're coaching basketball in the off-season.

Frankly, if I'm umpiring in a game with a guy who is also an *** hole coach (toward officials) ..I may just be a step slower in helping him out when they're ready to burn the dugouts on him. You know: give him a chance to stand there and see how he likes being the official in that situation.

Originally Posted by Tim C

Let's go a step further: if I pay to go to a major league game and an umpire (crew) seriously misapplies a rule do you folks expect me to do or say nothing if asked by another person in the crowd?

No. But I do expect that you won't shout out at the umpire in a manner to draw attention to yourself so that everyone in the stands now knows that another umpire thinks the umpires on the field screwed up.

[I realize that in a MLB park not everyone in the stands will hear you (except in DC) or know you're an umpire...but in the OP...or at a high school game, this is a very real possibility.]

Originally Posted by Tim C

4- In closing was Tim wrong?

Yes, he was.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by lawump

IMO, yes absolutely. You SHOULD be held to a different standard. You have first-hand knowledge of how difficult it is to officiate.



If "speaking freely" means "getting personal" with the official (so as to draw a technical) I would say "no". If speaking freely means addressing your concerns with the referee in a professional manner...then "yes".

For example, I umpire with a guy (who is a very, very good Div. 1 major-conference college umpire) who complains about (baseball) head coaches. He will say to other umpires that "that coach is a no good such-and-such" and "this coach is a no good xxxxxx" . Which is fine...we all say things like that about certain coaches to other umpires away from the field.

However, this same umpire also coaches a high school girls basketball team and he also likes to tell us stories about how proud he was to get tossed twice during the regular season because "the officials were just horrible and they needed to know it."

You know what? I have little respect for someone with that double-standard. It pisses me off, frankly. Don't moan and groan as an umpire about a head coach because "all he does is b itch and moan and whine all game long" and then go out and do the same thing when you're coaching basketball in the off-season.

Frankly, if I'm umpiring in a game with a guy who is also an *** hole coach (toward officials) ..I may just be a step slower in helping him out when they're ready to burn the dugouts on him. You know: give him a chance to stand there and see how he likes being the official in that situation.



No. But I do expect that you won't shout out at the umpire in a manner to draw attention to yourself so that everyone in the stands now knows that another umpire thinks the umpires on the field screwed up.

[I realize that in a MLB park not everyone in the stands will hear you (except in DC) or know you're an umpire...but in the OP...or at a high school game, this is a very real possibility.]



Yes, he was.

I hate rats as much as the next guy, but I expect a coach to be a coach during a game. I don't care if he's a professional or high level college official -- not even if he's an official of the same sport.

Why should that coach be held to a higher standard because sometimes he's an umpire? During the game, his job is coach. He should feel free to act like any other coach and my methods of dealing with him should be no different than the methods I use when someone else is coaching.

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Ridiculous. Just ridiculous.

Actually, there are numerous persons in our society who (voluntarily) hold positions the result of which is that they are held to a higher standard of conduct...even when they are acting in an area not directly related to the position creating that higher standard.

I don't find that ridiculous at all.