Hidden ball trick (it finally worked)

[bellsjc]

Doesn't the pitcher have to be off the dirt of the mound? Not just off the rubber?

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by bellsjc

Doesn't the pitcher have to be off the dirt of the mound? Not just off the rubber?

That would depend on the rule set that you are playing under.

OBR - F1 can not be astride or on the rubber

FED - F1 cannot be within 5 feet of the rubber (may as well say off the dirt)

NCAA - F1 cannot be on the dirt of the mound with either foot.

[Jay R]

We use OBR

[Forest Ump]

Jay... I had the same thing happen in a Bronco tournament last weekend. Bottom of the 7th with the score tied. Home team hits a lead off double. I was PU. BU calls out the runner as I'm returning to the plate. SS had the ball and tagged the runner when he stepped off. BU was right on top of it.

The manage tried to pull the same stunts. First he said that he called time. I told him that I call time, he request time. Of course he said he requested time. I told him he didn't. Yea right skip, how often does an offensive manager ask for time on a stand up double?

Then he tried to tell me the pitcher was on the mound. I told him he has to be standing on or astride the rubber without the ball and if he did it was a balk. I told him no balk occurred, the play stands. Play ball. They won the game three hits later. Those rats all think alike.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

That would depend on the rule set that you are playing under.

OBR - F1 can not be astride or on the rubber

FED - F1 cannot be within 5 feet of the rubber (may as well say off the dirt)

NCAA - F1 cannot be on the dirt of the mound with either foot.

Under OBR, "astride" is interpreted as not to mean just "straddling" the rubber but on the mound near the rubber; however, just how much a pitcher is permitted to be "on" the mound seems to be up to each individual umpire, unfortunately. J/R explains that it's not necessarily a balk if the pitcher is on the dirt. From what Jim Evans once said, and what Jaksa and Roder themselves once said at umpire school, if the pitcher is near the rubber a balk can be justified; otherwise it's a legal deception by the pitcher.

Completely unambiguous, isn't this?

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Under OBR, "astride" is interpreted as not to mean just "straddling" the rubber but on the mound near the rubber; however, just how much a pitcher is permitted to be "on" the mound seems to be up to each individual umpire, unfortunately. J/R explains that it's not necessarily a balk if the pitcher is on the dirt. From what Jim Evans once said, and what Jaksa and Roder themselves once said at umpire school, if the pitcher is near the rubber a balk can be justified; otherwise it's a legal deception by the pitcher.

Completely unambiguous, isn't this?

There is nothing in the JEA that says anything to the effect that "close enough" is a balk. I don't have his balk video though and he may have it there.

J/R says "on or astride" is a balk, followed by the sentence you used (paraphrased) "it's not necessarily a balk if the pitcher is on the dirt".

The BRD only lists "on or astride".

Absent any "close enough" documentation, I can't see anything but "on or astride" being a balk.

[UMP25]

It's the definition of "astride" that has led to confusion among many. Is it to be taken literally? Is its definition rather broad? That is the $64,000 question, one that was addressed at school by Mssrs. Jaksa and Roder themselves. However, it still seems a bit vague in the J/R book.

[Forest Ump]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

There is nothing in the JEA that says anything to the effect that "close enough" is a balk. I don't have his balk video though and he may have it there.

I have the Jim Evans DVD cued up to "Deliberately Deceiving". He points out that being on the mound is not a balk until the pitcher steps on the rubber. He steps on the rubber to demonstrate. He then says "or if the pitcher stands astride the rubber". He demonstrates this by straddling the rubber.

He finishes by saying. “High School and College interpretations vary on this enforcement. Many amateur leagues consider it a violation if the pitcher is on the dirt when the hidden ball trick is being executed. Check with your local association”

Best money I have spent was on this DVD. You can cue it up to any balk scenario you need.

[SanDiegoSteve]

I don't think the word "astride" is open to interpretation. It literally means "straddling."

[UMP25]

Personally, I think the wording should be changed to say "straddling." Regardless, at school a long 18 years ago the explanation was, shall I say, not totally clear.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Absent any "close enough" documentation, I can't see anything but "on or astride" being a balk.

OBR.

R3 and F5 has the ball. F1 walks up on the mound and stands iwith his pivot foot in front of but about 4" from the rubber. He has done nothing to simulate his pitching motion.