Scissors vs. Box (or GDS)

[lawump]

I was required to use the heel/toe stance (called "box" by pro umpires) in the slot while in the minors. I found that after every game my knees would be killing me. And I was in my young 20's. I often had to ice my knees after games.

Now before everyone starts posting, "well you must have been doing the (box) stance incorrectly"....being a minor league umpire I was evaluated multiple times during the season. And I can assure you, that the one area I was NOT zinged for, was a lack of proper stance. In fact, I was told that my stance looked very good, by mutliple evaluators. So according to reliable outside sources (MiLB evaluators) my stance was "correct".

However, as a result of my knee discomfort, I could not wait to switch to the scissors when I left the minors and went down to college, Legion and High School. I have used the scissors for 7 years and I love the stance. My knees never hurt.

After being on these boards as a poster for several years, I am very cognizant that there is a risk of neck issues from using the scissors (T is a very reliable poster). So far I've had no issues at all. However, if I start feeling anything...who knows what I'll do? What does an umpire need more: a neck or knees?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by lawump

What does an umpire need more: a neck or knees?

It depends very much on what's at the other end of the neck.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by lawump

However, if I start feeling anything...who knows what I'll do? What does an umpire need more: a neck or knees?

Go to GDS and save them both.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Go to GDS and save them both.

Tried...I don't like. I know I'm stubborn, but it was just too far out of my comfort zone.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by lawump

Tried...I don't like. I know I'm stubborn, but it was just too far out of my comfort zone.

If you prefer sore knees or the risk of neck injuries over the "discomfort" of the GDS, then what grounds for complaint have you concerning the former?

One would think that any new stance would take an experienced umpire out of his comfort zone. The issue is whether the advantages of the stance make it worth the trouble reshaping one's comfort zone.

As you probably know but others might not, the risk of neck injuries is significant and the basis of the prohibition of "scissors" among MiLB umpires. Insurers won't cover those who use it. I suspect that this might one day extend to FED, ABUA, and other groups carrying injury insurance for umpires.

MLB umpires may still use it without losing their insurance; I would infer that MLB pays extra premiums to cover the extra risk. Ah, the show!

[lawump]

Originally Posted by mbyron

If you prefer sore knees or the risk of neck injuries over the "discomfort" of the GDS, then what grounds for complaint have you concerning the former?

One would think that any new stance would take an experienced umpire out of his comfort zone. The issue is whether the advantages of the stance make it worth the trouble reshaping one's comfort zone.

As you probably know but others might not, the risk of neck injuries is significant and the basis of the prohibition of "scissors" among MiLB umpires. Insurers won't cover those who use it. I suspect that this might one day extend to FED, ABUA, and other groups carrying injury insurance for umpires.

MLB umpires may still use it without losing their insurance; I would infer that MLB pays extra premiums to cover the extra risk. Ah, the show!

The bottom line is: I tried the GD stance for several, several games. I felt that I was not as good a ball & strikes umpire for whatever reason. (I admit it might totally be psychological). Hey, I said I'm stubborn.

I, personally, feel the most comfortable in the scissors. I'm never tired after a nine-inning game (I always feel as if I can go a few more innings), and I consistently have solid game after solid game with balls and strikes (based on self-evaluations). Until and unless my neck becomes sore and/or the stance is banned in a manner like you suggested, I'm sticking with it. I will also drop it if the stance, though not banned, goes the way of the outside protector. That is, anyone who uses it is considered to look "unprofessional". I allow for the possibility that the stance could be nearly entirely filtered out of the profession, just like the "true" box stance.

[Klokard]

I did my first game in '78 and over the years have only used a few stances. I even tried the inside knee on the ground for a while back in the mid 80's. I have been using the heel/toe squat until last year. At the advice of another seasoned ump, I tried the GD during a Mens Sunday wood bat game. Wow, not sure how I got along without it. I am stable, my head height is consistent and I can open the gate both ways with no problem. I never heard of neck problems with the scissors until reading this thread. The fault I found with it is opening the gate on the off side. I actually fell on my a$$ during a JC game. Not cool.

[Tim C]

Well for those that are so lazy they won't use the search feature on this website (there are at least 15 threads about the stance) try this:

http://www.baseball.officiating.com/x/article/2904

There are also picture references in at least four threads.

Regards,

[fitump56]

Originally Posted by lawump

I was required to use the heel/toe stance (called "box" by pro umpires) in the slot while in the minors. I found that after every game my knees would be killing me. And I was in my young 20's. I often had to ice my knees after games.

Now before everyone starts posting, "well you must have been doing the (box) stance incorrectly"....being a minor league umpire I was evaluated multiple times during the season. And I can assure you, that the one area I was NOT zinged for, was a lack of proper stance. In fact, I was told that my stance looked very good, by mutliple evaluators. So according to reliable outside sources (MiLB evaluators) my stance was "correct".

However, as a result of my knee discomfort, I could not wait to switch to the scissors when I left the minors and went down to college, Legion and High School. I have used the scissors for 7 years and I love the stance. My knees never hurt.

If Minor League Baseball/ "evaluators" had any brains at all, then they would look at each individual and consider his situation. If your evalaution had you as a miserable ball-strike caller, duh, maybe it was because you were distracted by pain. It's not your fault that your body doesn't like a certain semi-static position and what difference does it make if you do a good job? This is a typical power-control agenda, using this or that as a "highway or bye-byeway". Ever watch "Big Love"?

After being on these boards as a poster for several years, I am very cognizant that there is a risk of neck issues from using the scissors (T is a very reliable poster). So far I've had no issues at all. However, if I start feeling anything...who knows what I'll do? What does an umpire need more: a neck or knees?

Coin toss. Neck if you have no knee issues, knees if you can't do your job because of them. I assume you are wearing a hockey styled mask, right?