Foul tip hits home plate

[Spectator]

I was a spectator at a 5th-6th grade level baseball game and clearly saw a batter hit a foul tip. The ball shot straight down from the bat and hit the top edge of home plate to the right of the catcher’s right leg and then bounced approx. 12” further to the right of home plate. The catcher grabbed the ball thinking it was a foul; however the umpire called it a live ball. The player on third base made it home and the batter advanced to first base. I was always under the impression that if a foul tip directly hits home plate it is ruled a dead ball. Please explain.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Spectator

I was a spectator at a 5th-6th grade level baseball game and clearly saw a batter hit a foul tip. The ball shot straight down from the bat and hit the top edge of home plate to the right of the catcher’s right leg and then bounced approx. 12” further to the right of home plate. The catcher grabbed the ball thinking it was a foul; however the umpire called it a live ball. The player on third base made it home and the batter advanced to first base. I was always under the impression that if a foul tip directly hits home plate it is ruled a dead ball. Please explain.

Take a look at the definition of a foul tip:

A FOUL TIP is a batted ball that goes sharp and direct from the bat to the catcher's hands and is legally caught. It is not a foul tip unless caught and any foul tip that is caught is a strike, and the ball is in play. It is not a catch if it is a rebound, unless the ball has first touched the catcher's glove or hand.


This should have been ruled a foul ball unless the catcher somehow managed to glove the ball over fair territory.


Tim.

[tibear]

In the infield, It doesn't matter where a hit ball lands with regards to being fair or foul it is where the ball is first touched or comes to rest.

Before first and third base:
- if the ball is touched over fair territory or comes to rest on fair territory it is a fair ball.
- if the ball is touched over foul territory or comes to rest on foul territory it is a foul ball.

BTW, this is not a foul tip. A foul tip is a ball that is touched by the bat and goes directly to the backcatchers hand or glove and is caught.

BigUmp got in there just ahead of me!

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by tibear

In the infield, It doesn't matter where a hit ball lands with regards to being fair or foul it is where the ball is first touched or comes to rest.

Before first and third base:
- if the ball is touched over fair territory or comes to rest on fair territory it is a fair ball.
- if the ball is touched over foul territory or comes to rest on foul territory it is a foul ball.

BTW, this is not a foul tip. A foul tip is a ball that is touched by the bat and goes directly to the backcatchers hand or glove and is caught.

BigUmp got in there just ahead of me!

"backcatchers"

Where does the "front catcher" play?

Bob

[mbyron]

A. That's not a foul tip.
B. The plate is completely in fair territory.
C. If the catcher touched the batted ball directly over the plate, that's a fair ball.

For more in-depth explanations, see rule 2.00, "Fair Ball," "Foul Ball," "Foul Tip."

[johnnyg08]

A foul tip is only a foul tip if it's caught by the catcher. Otherwise it is a foul ball...but if it hit home plate...as you're posting...it is a fair ball...sounds like you had a pretty decent ump for your 5th-6th grade game...apologize to him if you jumped down his throat..

FED rules page 21 (2-16, ART 2) a foul tip is a batted ball that goes directly to the catcher's hands and is legally caught by any fielder. It shall be called a strike and the ball is in play. Don't have OBR handy today...and can't find anything in PBUC, but it might be in there.

[johnnyg08]

All within a few minutes of each other...nice job guys...

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Spectator

I was a spectator at a 5th-6th grade level baseball game and clearly saw a batter hit a foul tip. The ball shot straight down from the bat and hit the top edge of home plate to the right of the catcher’s right leg and then bounced approx. 12” further to the right of home plate. The catcher grabbed the ball thinking it was a foul; however the umpire called it a live ball. The player on third base made it home and the batter advanced to first base. I was always under the impression that if a foul tip directly hits home plate it is ruled a dead ball. Please explain.

As Tim just explained, what you saw was a "foul ball," not a "foul tip." The umpire must have ruled it a fair ball. Home plate is part of fair territory, so a batted ball that hits home plate, and does not roll into foul territory, is a fair ball. That is the only way the umpire could possibly ruled in this case, for the Batter-runner to advance to first base and the run to score.

[johnnyg08]

way to go Tim

[Spectator]

Sorry for my lack of the proper term that I was trying to refer to and thank you all for such a speedy response. So that I’m clear on the ruling; if the lines around the Batter and Catcher box are worn and are not clearly marked, how large of an area around home plate is fair territory, i.e. the diameter of the line around home plate. The reason I ask is because it seemed clear that after the ball hit home plate and bounced up it either hit the batter or the catcher and seemed to roll out of fair territory. I clearly understand that the ball hitting home plate is always fair territory, is it not more relevant where the ball ends up? And if the ball indeed hit the catcher or batter after hitting home plate, is there a ruling there also. I can definitely see how making a call in a split second with so many variables can be very difficult. Thanks again.

[bisonpitcher]

Fair territory starts at the back corner of HP and goes in a straight line to the outside edge of the 1st and 3rd base bags and continues to the fence or end of the playing area. If the ball first touched the catcher anywhere in this area, fair ball. If it was first touched outside of this area, foul ball. Batters box has nothing to do with fair/foul except that in most instances a batter that is hit by a rebounding ball while in the box will incur a foul ball. If it strikes the batter in fair territory, then the batter is out.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Spectator

The reason I ask is because it seemed clear that after the ball hit home plate and bounced up it either hit the batter or the catcher and seemed to roll out of fair territory. I clearly understand that the ball hitting home plate is always fair territory, is it not more relevant where the ball ends up? And if the ball indeed hit the catcher or batter after hitting home plate, is there a ruling there also. I can definitely see how making a call in a split second with so many variables can be very difficult. Thanks again.

I don't know what the diameter of a 5-sided object looks like ... so I'll ignore that.

The point of the plate is the corner of the square that defines fair territory, and the lines of that square extend from that point to the outside edges of the bases - a ball inside that square or touching the line is in fair territory.

A ball that has not been touched (by a player, coach, fence, etc) or come to rest is neither a foul ball nor a fair ball... it is nothing until it either stops or is touched. Then, the location of the ball when it stops or is touched determines whether that ball is fair or foul (unless it's caught in flight, in which case it's merely a caught fly ball over fair or foul territory, and still live).

Your ball hit the plate ... it is currently over fair territory, but is still neither fair nor foul.

You then mention (in the 2nd post, not the OP) that it was touched by the batter or the catcher... this changes the OP completely. If it touched the batter and the batter is still in the box, then by rule it's a foul ball, even if it was in that small corner of the batter's box that is in fair territory. If it touched the catcher, then it is either fair or foul based upon where it was when it touched the catcher (if this occurred directly over home plate - the ball is fair!). The fact that it then bounded a mile foul is irrelevant - it gained it's fair/foul status the second it was touched.

Perhaps your ball hit the catcher directly over the plate and deflected 12 feet foul - then the umpire's call was right - fair ball, play on.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

A foul tip would not hit the plate, therefore, your question is mute!

Hey Ozzy, check it out. He posted again apologizing for the wrong terminology.

The bottom line is that if the ball was first touched in foul territory, it was foul. If first touched in fair, then it was fair. The umpire obviously ruled that it was a fair ball, so in his judgment, the ball was touched by the catcher while over fair territory.

Spectator, the entire plate is in fair territory, and the foul lines extend out from the back point of the plate.

[LakeErieUmp]

Not only is the question "mute" but it's also "moot"!

I only wish I had a mute button for coaches

[johnnyg08]

mute point...i love it