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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 22, 2005, 05:17pm
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Situation:

BR hits a HR but fails to touch home plate. Catcher sees she missed plate. Player on deck sees BR missed plate and tells her she missed plate as she passed her in the circle.

Question #1: Can BR return and touch plate at this point?

Question #2: If so, how does catcher appeal BR missed plate before BR gets back to plate to touch it since the ball is over fence and the umpire has the second ball in his bag?
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Old Tue Mar 22, 2005, 05:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by strike4
Situation:

BR hits a HR but fails to touch home plate. Catcher sees she missed plate. Player on deck sees BR missed plate and tells her she missed plate as she passed her in the circle.

Question #1: Can BR return and touch plate at this point?
Speaking ASA

As long as the ODB doesn't touch the player, yes.
Quote:

Question #2: If so, how does catcher appeal BR missed plate before BR gets back to plate to touch it since the ball is over fence and the umpire has the second ball in his bag?
She cannot. It is a dead ball and all runners must be given every chance to complete their running assignments prior to accepting any appeal.
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 22, 2005, 06:23pm
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This does not appear to be fair to the defensive team, but thanks for your reply.
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Old Tue Mar 22, 2005, 09:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by strike4
This does not appear to be fair to the defensive team, but thanks for your reply.
You mean the team that just gave up the home run?

On deck batters may coach runners. The on deck batter may not physically assist the runners, but she may coach the runners. No different from a coach in the dugout shouting or the 3rd base coach telling her to go back and retouch the base.

Once she enters the dugout, though, she may not return to retouch.
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2005, 02:05am
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ISF
Q1 yes
Q2 Before a appeal can be heard a ball (original or new ball must be entered into play ). If the appeal is lodged before the runner returns then they are out .
Also a runner may return to any missed base during the time the ball is dead
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2005, 02:03pm
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That is my point. Can he get an out if the umpire rushes and gives the ball out of his bag? If the umpire just stands there, the defense has no chance of making a play. Either way, this puts the umpire in a bad position.

There is something wrong with this situation IMO.
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2005, 02:21pm
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Speaking ASA (Mike or others will have to address the ISF ruling - but it sounds odd to me), the location of the ball has nothing to do with a dead ball appeal. Any infielder may make a dead ball appeal when the ball is (ahem) dead.

However, (continuing to speak ASA), POE #1 contains these two sentences regarding dead ball appeals,
Quote:
Runners must be given ample opportunity, in the umpire's judgment, to complete their base running responsibilities.... If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities before the dead ball appeal can be made.
How, when, or where the umpire tosses the ball from his bag into the game has no bearing whatsoever on when the umpire will hear any appeal. As long as the runner is still legally running the bases (including returning to touch a missed base) the umpire must allow him to complete that before recognizing any dead ball appeal. Again, where the ball is is of no consequence.

Finally, POE #1 says
Quote:
A runner may not return to touch a missed base or one left too soon on a caught fly ball if he has left the field of play ...
Which would be the dugout or bench area in most instances of a home run.
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2005, 04:04pm
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I fail to see what is unfair in this case, regardless of what the umpire does.

The existence and location of a ball, whether it's lost in a creek in left field, in Little Johnny's hand on the way to get his free snow-cone, returned to the field of play by a Cubs fan, or thrown to the pitcher by the umpire, is entirely irrelevant.

A ball is not required to make a dead-ball appeal. In fact, a ball cannot be used to make a dead-ball appeal. So who cares where the ball is, and who got one to the pitcher.

A dead-ball appeal in this case cannot be made until the batter-runner leaves the field of play.

So ... explain to me again how the umpire's actions can put anyone at an advantage or disadvantage?
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Old Wed Mar 23, 2005, 05:06pm
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Before I start, remember I am a second year umpire so be easy on me.

I am basing this on what I have read on this thread and the one on the subject of when to put a ball into play after a HR.

If the catcher can not appeal the BR missing the plate until she leaves the field, then it seems unfair for a runner to get to go all the way to one step outside of the dugout, laugh and joke with team players, turn around casually walk back to home and tag the plate without possibility of being put out.

If this is true, and it appears to be, then the same thing applies if the BR misses 1b on purpose, trots to 2b misses it, jogs to 3b misses it, slows to a pace a little faster than a walk, steps over home plate, high fives all her team, walks to one step outside of the dugout, turns around, laughs as she runs to home, touches plate, runs to 3b touches it, runs to 2b touches it, runs to 1b touches it, turns around, runs to 2b touches it, runs to 3b touches it, runs to home, and finally touches it for a score with out the possibility of being put out.

If I miss understoud what was being said, someone please correct me. Again remember, this is my second year in this business.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2005, 05:45am
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Quote:
A ball is not required to make a dead-ball appeal.
This is NOT true according ISF Rules.
It sounds crazy to me, too. But that's it.

A.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2005, 06:04am
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Unhappy

Quote:
Originally posted by strike4
If this is true, and it appears to be, then the same thing applies if the BR misses 1b on purpose, trots to 2b misses it, jogs to 3b misses it, slows to a pace a little faster than a walk, steps over home plate, high fives all her team, walks to one step outside of the dugout, turns around, laughs as she runs to home, touches plate, runs to 3b touches it, runs to 2b touches it, runs to 1b touches it, turns around, runs to 2b touches it, runs to 3b touches it, runs to home, and finally touches it for a score with out the possibility of being put out. [/B]
IMO if this really happens you can easily apply Rule 8 Sec.9-s (ISF Rules). I'm sorry I don't know how to say it in english, but this rule do not allow a runner to make a fool of the game (I know it sounds stupid in english but I cannot find other words . sorry)

A.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2005, 07:53am
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder


A dead-ball appeal in this case cannot be made until the batter-runner leaves the field of play.

Speaking ASA.

This is a simplistic benchmark that we all use, but technically, an umpire needs not what for this to accept an appeal.

The umpire cannot accept a dead-ball appeal until all runners have been given a reasonable amount of time to complete their running responsibilities.

The statement above assumes the runner touches the plate and then heads directly for the dugout area. What if a runner doesn't immediately enter dead-ball territory? What if s/he heads towards a basecoach to receive instructions on preparing for their defensive half of the inning? What if for some reason s/he heads for a gate beyond the dugout area to leave the field? Or does any number of things which would indicate to an umpire that s/he is finished their running responsibilities?

The umpire may accept and rule on a dead-ball appeal anytime s/he is satisfied the runner is done.

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Old Thu Mar 24, 2005, 09:13am
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Antonella - if this was done INTENTIONALLY, to make a travesty of the game, we could, indeed take action.

But the simple missing of home plate, a trot toward the dugout where she's told she missed the plate, and a return to home is not a travesty, and is well within the rules.

I still fail to see what's unfair here. Defense allowed the homer after all, and the rules are clear that no appeal can be made until the runner has been given ample opportunity to fulfill her baserunning responsibilities.
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Old Thu Mar 24, 2005, 09:35am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Antonella
Quote:
Originally posted by strike4
If this is true, and it appears to be, then the same thing applies if the BR misses 1b on purpose, trots to 2b misses it, jogs to 3b misses it, slows to a pace a little faster than a walk, steps over home plate, high fives all her team, walks to one step outside of the dugout, turns around, laughs as she runs to home, touches plate, runs to 3b touches it, runs to 2b touches it, runs to 1b touches it, turns around, runs to 2b touches it, runs to 3b touches it, runs to home, and finally touches it for a score with out the possibility of being put out.
IMO if this really happens you can easily apply Rule 8 Sec.9-s (ISF Rules). I'm sorry I don't know how to say it in english, but this rule do not allow a runner to make a fool of the game (I know it sounds stupid in english but I cannot find other words . sorry)

A. [/B]
Your translation conveyed the message - no worries. "Travesty of the game" is the phrase you were looking for, which means, it is done for ridicule (or to make a fool of the opposition), so you were close enough.

I've emphasized parts of strike4's posting where it indicates that is what he was describing - a runner who intentionally misses the bases so he can taunt the opposition by reversing to retouch. He could be declared out. (ASA Rule 8-3-D).

However, if it was inadvertant (or you weren't sure it was intended to make a travesty of the game), he may return to retouch so long as he touches each base properly (in both directions).
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Old Sun Mar 27, 2005, 09:00am
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Suggestion:
ASA rules - POE 1C(2) If the ball has gone out of play, runners must be given the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities, before the dead ball appeal can be made.

8.7H states that the BR is entitled to a HR. Unless she physically enters the dugout area (Dead Ball) prior to tagging the plate, the defense is not entitled to a dead ball appeal.

Reminder to everyone to watch the runners tagging up on the bases as best as you can and to the PU's, watch the runners tagging up on the plate. As long as no one physically assist her with returning to tag the plate, she can come back in a reasonable time to resovle the issue. If she enters the dugout area without tagging, she is out?
This forum comes up with some thought provoking questions. This is my second year as an ASA umpire.
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