Two different plays .. what is called??

[Tweet]

Alright boys I saw these two plays this weekend I did not have to call them my partners did but I was never sure about the ruling and the rules are so confusing.

Anyways..

1st Situation:
Runners on 1st and 2nd, Batter hits grounder that touches R1 before it passes a fielder. Now it's obvious that R1 is out and that BR gets 1st. My question is, does R2 get 3rd? Because the rule says he does if he is forced to advance, which he was when the ball was hit, but the force was removed when it touched R1 so which timing do we go by???

2nd situation:
Once again runners on 1st and 2nd, ball is hit towards Shortstop. R2 interferes with the fielder making the catch. Now R2 is out. Is either of R1 or BR out and if BR is out, does R1 have to go back to first base.

Thanks gentlemen

[waltjp]

Sit 1 -

You're correct, R1 is out. B/R to first, R2 remains at 2B.

Think of this situation - bases loaded. Batter grounds a ball toward F6. R2 is hit with the batted ball while passing in front of F6. The ball is dead, R2 is out.
B/R to first base.
R1 is forced to advance to second base because the B/R is awarded first base. R3 returns to third.

Sit 2 -
If the umpire judges the interference to be intentional he could declare the batter out and complete the double play. R1 would return to first base if the inning is to continue.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Sit 2 -
If the umpire judges the interference to be intentional he could declare the batter out and complete the double play. R1 would return to first base if the inning is to continue.

Not under OBR he is. DP interference outs would be declared only in situations where it's an "obvious and imminent" double play, intent notwithstanding, meaning the double play itself must be both obvious and imminent. That's why the DP is called in the Force Play Slide Rule situation in NCAA, for example.

I can't see how in Sit. 2 of the OP's comments one could justify ruling a double play. If F6 is trying to field a ball and R2 runs into him, we've got a simple interference: R2 is out, ball's dead, R1 is moved to second due to the batter being awarded first base.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Tweet

My question is, does R2 get 3rd? Because the rule says he does if he is forced to advance, which he was when the ball was hit, but the force was removed when it touched R1 so which timing do we go by???

It's not a timing issue. If you read the rule (7.08f), you'll notice that the complete phrase is "nor may any runner advance, unless forced to advance." On runner interference, the ball is dead immediately, so the initial force play cannot be a factor in placing the runners.

The question is then whether the award to BR forces a runner to advance. In your situation, it does not force R2 to advance. Waltjp's case illustrates how the award works (though he doesn't explain the principle behind it).

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by UMP25

Not under OBR he is. DP interference outs would be declared only in situations where it's an "obvious and imminent" double play, intent notwithstanding, meaning the double play itself must be both obvious and imminent. That's why the DP is called in the Force Play Slide Rule situation in NCAA, for example.

I can't see how in Sit. 2 of the OP's comments one could justify ruling a double play. If F6 is trying to field a ball and R2 runs into him, we've got a simple interference: R2 is out, ball's dead, R1 is moved to second due to the batter being awarded first base.

I can easily see this being a DP - but not on BR, on R1 - R1 is far enough off the base when R2 crashes into a fielder about to catch the ball (OP didn't say "fielding a grounder", it said, "Making a catch"), R1 is a dead duck. DP - R2 out, R1 out, BR to first.

[UMP25]

It is a bit unclear as to whether it was a fly ball or ground ball. However, that doesn't mean it's an automatic DP.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by UMP25

It is a bit unclear as to whether it was a fly ball or ground ball. However, that doesn't mean it's an automatic DP.

No ... definitely not automatic, and I didn't mean to imply that. Just saying that it's not automatically WRONG, which is what I took, "I can't see how in Sit. 2 of the OP's comments one could justify ruling a double play., to mean.

I can definitely see an umpire judging this one either way, depending on where everyone is when the INT happened.