Fair or Foul?

[starman]

12 year old players, 15 year old umps.........

No outs. Nobody on base. Ball hit down the right field line. Home plate up yells foul. First base up points fair. Batter reaches second base. What’s the call? Fair or foul?

[mcrowder]

Foul. . . .

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by starman

12 year old players, 15 year old umps.........

No outs. Nobody on base. Ball hit down the right field line. Home plate up yells foul. First base up points fair. Batter reaches second base. What’s the call? Fair or foul?

Depends.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Depends.

Depends on your definition of yell.
If PU yelled in a loud whisper "foul" and no one heard him then fair it is.

But it goes back to the age old question:
If an ump makes a call in the forest and no one hears it ..........

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

With no one on base, there is only one person who is to make the call, and that is the BU, not the PU, unless, the BU really screwed it up. I had a situation last week where I was the PU with no one on base. The right-handed batter hits a flair down the right field line. The BU, instead of going down the line to be in position to signal fair or foul, he runs from the "A" position to the "B" position and is signaling fair at the same time. The only problem with this fair call, was that the ball was foul by at least six inches. My BU was out of position and kicked the call. As PU I stepped in and made the correct call.

MTD, Sr.

[mcrowder]

Mark - he didn't ask whose call it is. He asks what it is when PU yells (and Don/Garth ... he did say "yells" - I think it's safe to assume that he meant everyone heard it) FOUL and the BU points fair. Yes, this was supposed to be BU's call ... but a balled called FOUL where the call is heard is foul. Unringable bell.

[blueump]

The age of the players was given in the OP but not the set of rules they were playing under.

Fed rules covers this in 2-16-1e

"A foul is a batted ball that touches the ground after inadvertently being declared foul by an umpire."

If this were a FED game we would have a foul ball no matter which umpire called it or how loudly he called it!

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

(and Don/Garth ... he did say "yells" - I think it's safe to assume that he meant everyone heard it) FOUL and the BU points fair. Yes, this was supposed to be BU's call ... but a balled called FOUL where the call is heard is foul. Unringable bell.

I'm sorry I forgot to put a little smiley face on my post to indicate a not so subtle attempt at sarcasm.
I obviously failed.

In any event I agree with you.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Mark - he didn't ask whose call it is. He asks what it is when PU yells (and Don/Garth ... he did say "yells" - I think it's safe to assume that he meant everyone heard it) FOUL and the BU points fair. Yes, this was supposed to be BU's call ... but a balled called FOUL where the call is heard is foul. Unringable bell.

Not so fast.

I have witnessed, first hand, two instances at the ML level in which foul calls were changed to fair. One was changed by the same umpire who made the foul call and one was the result of a huddle. The "get the call right" crowd has run amok. Neither invovled a question of H/R v. foul, which would add additional occurances.

The first instance, by Bruce F. on a shot down the LF line resulted in R2 being tagged out half way between second and third and an ejection.

Now then, about FED.....


(edited to correct a typo)

[starman]

thanks guys. The runner made it to second. The umpires dsicussed it and they were actually going to let the runner stay at second. Then umpries' supivsor came over and told them to rule it foul.

[PeteBooth]

As Garth pointed out a FOUL can be changed to FAIR, but in general when an umpire calls FOUL, it's FOUL.

In your example: what did F8 do when he heard FOUL?. Perhaps he stopped chasing after the ball or didn't even bother making a play to begin with after he heard FOUL which is the primary reason the BR made it second.

If ALL the players reacted as if the ball were indeed fair, then you can change the call, but as mentioned the general rule of thumb is when ONE umpire calls FOUL we all call FOUL and live with it. It's not the end of the world.

Pete Booth

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

As Garth pointed out a FOUL can be changed to FAIR, but in general when an umpire calls FOUL, it's FOUL.

Whether it can be changed or should be changed are two different things.
If you're not Bruce F I'd suggest sticking with the philosophy of once foul always foul.
I'll even take bets that Bruce F will never reverse another foul call to fair(not counting HRs)

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Whether it can be changed or should be changed are two different things.
If you're not Bruce F I'd suggest sticking with the philosophy of once foul always foul.

This is not an academic argument. A foul call can and in certain circumstances should be changed. Again, have you never seen a foul call changed to home run? It happens. Sometimes it happens during the AL play-offs.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by GarthB

This is not an academic argument. A foul call can and in certain circumstances should be changed. Again, have you never seen a foul call changed to home run? It happens. Sometimes it happens during the AL play-offs.

Since the OP was not a HR issue, the reference to Bruce F was not a HR issue and since my last post ended with the not counting HRs disclaimer it's a safe bet that I wasn't speaking to the issue of foul or HR.
Again I say, there is a difference between CAN and SHOULD.
Bruce proved that you CAN and at the same time showed that you SHOULD NOT.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Again, have you never seen a foul call changed to home run? It happens. Sometimes it happens during the AL play-offs.

Yes, but that's one form of dead-ball to another. That's easier to 'fix' than going from dead to live.