Fair or Foul?

[drvestal]

I saw this happen at a game the other day and there was major controversy.

Right handed batter and R1. Batter hits a hard ground ball down the first base line that bounces once before the bag in fair territory. The ball bounces over the 1st base bag then lands in foul territory past the bag. What's the call? Fair or Foul?

The ump ruled fair ball because it passed over the bag inside the line. The coach went crazy. R1 went to 3rd and BR to 2nd.

[Patrick Szalapski]

Absolutely the correct call.

"A FOUL BALL is a batted ball that... bounds past first or third base on or over foul territory" (OBR 2.00).

P-Sz

[drvestal]

I agree. Fair ball. That's what I would have called and have called before.

[Jerry]

A FAIR BALL . . . is on or over fair territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base.

A FOUL BALL . . . is on or over foul territory when bounding to the outfield past first or third base.

What possible major controversey could erupt from that? Perhaps a disagreement on whether it actually bounded on or over the bag? That's a judgment call then. The definition itself is pretty basic.

Jerry

[Tim C]

As described, FAIR.

But I contend (have contended?) over the years that this single call is "missed" the most often of any call.

It has always appeared to me that "most" PU's call this ball FOUL. Reason, as HHH puts it, being that it is the "expected" call.

A ball can land in foul ground 3' to 6' on the outfield side of the bag . . . it is "easier" for umpires to call that ball FOUL . . .

Why?

The ONLY person (in most of our non-professional games) who would argue (that the ball was fair) is the Head Coach (Manager) and NORMALLY that person is coaching third and has no view.

This question is really quite deep if you think about it.

[Edited by Tim C on Jun 5th, 2002 at 02:29 PM]

[Marty Rogers]

Sorry, but on that call (the same down the 3rd base line),
I don't have time to give a damn about who will or will not agree with me. If I did, I wouldn't care anyway. That call
is pointed IMMEDIATELY (or verbalized) based on PU's gut reaction just as it happens. Umpires are there to call the game fairly and not to be concerned with what call would cause less flack. What's expected from anyone except the umpire(s) doesn't matter. The question is not deep.
You call it like you see it.

[Tim C]

I edited my post because with some people it is just not worth the effort.

If you would READ the post you'd understand (on second thought, maybe you wouldn't understand it, ever) . . . it is my OBSERVATION.

Have a Great Year.





[Edited by Tim C on Jun 5th, 2002 at 10:45 PM]

[Marty Rogers]

Tim, I did read your post.
It is your OBSERVATION that umpires are missing this call.
How do you KNOW the reason WHY? Did you ask each of these umpires why they made the wrong call? Maybe they are
just blowing the calls without any ulterior motive.

I'm a good umpire, but I don't think I am good enough (or fast enough) to think about what's "expected" of me before I react and call it (hot line drive down the baseline). Come to think of it, what's expected of me is to call what I see, without regard to anyone's opinion/expectations. If that were the case, we wouldn't need umpires and coaches could just call the game as they see fit.

[Tim C]

Because I like your posts I will give this one more try . . . maybe it is my writing that isn't clear.

When one makes an observation it is placed in memory.

When one makes the observation more than once the HISTORY of the occurance starts to build a data base.

Then, while the observer is not on the field, he starts to postulate "why" this occurance seems to happen over-and-over.

Certain thoughts are discarded . . . others are given critical review . . . some "pass the test"

Now on this specific issue I REALLY don't think that each umpire, each time, makes a critiacal judgement along the lines of, "let's see, that ball was over the bag, but it landed 5' foul and the third base coach didn't have a good view and the third base coach is the head coach . . ."

I think you get my drift.

My observation is:

This fair/foul call seems to be missed very often by plate umpires.

The question becomes:

Why is this call made, what appears to be, wrong . . . so many times and so consistently.

The data taken in over casual viewing of 45 years of all levels of ball is:

"The commonality "appears" to be that the call is EASIER to sell as a foul ball (i.e. HHH's 'Making the Expected Call') so many umpires make that call."

There is no formal study just a view of an old and retired umpire.

You tried to make this personal in your original post and that does not fly.

So Marty, make your calls and have a great season because this is JUST my opinion and not worth further effort to defend.

[Marty Rogers]

Tim: I like your posts, too. I guess I missed the
reference you mention, "Making the Expected Call" by
HHH. Perhaps you are right in your assessment that umpires
call this wrong because it is easier for them to sell it.
Doing this purposely is something I personally don't do.
I'm not saying I never miss a call, just that I try to get them right, AND sell if necessary. Maybe because of my
relative inexperience, I am still disillusioned and think that being 100% honest in my judgment is the best way to call a game. So far, putting up with flack when I know I'm right isn't so hard to swallow. But, I'm sure your opinion is correct that many umps take the easy route.

I don't think umps call foul because it's easier to sell. I think either he just isn't fast enough to get a look at it and decides to call foul because he isn't sure. Most aren't going to show fair if they aren't sure. The other possiblility is because he didn't get a good look he honestly thinks it's foul.

[phillycheese]

I hate screamin' bounders. Give me a nice dribbler, or fly ball anytime. Heck, even throw in a fielder standing on one side of the line and touching a fly ball on the other side of the line, I don't care.
Point is, them are tough, no reaction time to get the 'best' look, so like Marty said, we use our gut. And if blue happens to subscribe to the 'expected call' philosophy, his gut will say foul ball without so much as a thought process. If blue 'calls em like he sees em,' on a screamin' bounder, he's guessing anyway.
And to think, I formed this opinion with relatively little experience. Now you all can tell me what you think of my opinion
Phil