Visiting HC crosses the Chalk line

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by David B

Certainly a coach being on the field is covered in the book, even in a live ball situation.

However, the penalty for this infraction is not obstruction.

Thanks
David

Thanks. Good think I didn't say it was. What's your point?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

How did the coach directly affect the play any differently than had he issued instructions from just outside the dugout.

Tim.

Why are people only reading pieces of what I wrote independently of each other. Good grief.

At risk of repeating myself, since a couple of you refuse to read what I said ...

If the umpire did not feel the coach being on the field to issue his instructions during a live ball had any affect on the play, then of course the only penalty should be ejection. Nothing else.

But surely each of you can envision a case where having a coach in the middle of a play during a live ball would create an advantage for the defense. If you cannot, ignore the rest of the post. (If there's no advantage to having a coach on the field ... why don't we just allow them out there all the time?!?!)

It's obvious to me that the umpire in the OP DID feel that the coach created an advantage for his team by being able to be on the field to issue instructions, and directly affected the play. If that's the case, then your only remedy to fix this advantage is to use 9.01c - and in this case I don't think the O-Poster was out of line in his solution (with the exception being his use of the term "obstruction.")

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Why are people only reading pieces of what I wrote independently of each other. Good grief.

At risk of repeating myself, since a couple of you refuse to read what I said ...

If the umpire did not feel the coach being on the field to issue his instructions during a live ball had any affect on the play, then of course the only penalty should be ejection. Nothing else.

But surely each of you can envision a case where having a coach in the middle of a play during a live ball would create an advantage for the defense. If you cannot, ignore the rest of the post. (If there's no advantage to having a coach on the field ... why don't we just allow them out there all the time?!?!)

It's obvious to me that the umpire in the OP DID feel that the coach created an advantage for his team by being able to be on the field to issue instructions, and directly affected the play. If that's the case, then your only remedy to fix this advantage is to use 9.01c - and in this case I don't think the O-Poster was out of line in his solution (with the exception being his use of the term "obstruction.")

I'll ask you again, Mike, how did the coach possibly affect this play and differently than had he issued instructions from the dugout?


The HC is 4 ft inside the chalk line and sees everything happening and yells at F1 to throw to 3rd and he does.



Tim.

[David B]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Thanks. Good think I didn't say it was. What's your point?

Just happened to use your quote, but as you know my point as always is to keep it in the frame of reference of the rules.

Just for the readers who might be a little confused.

Sorry if that offended you.

Thanks
David

[TussAgee11]

I see it this way...

either

a) you feel the pitcher would not have recieved the instructions had the coach been on the bench

b) the coach being on the field or in the dugout made no difference, the pitcher would have recieved that instruction anyway

I'm going to lean with a, because frankly the coach is a freaking moron and since I have to make a decision that could go either way, I'm going to choose to screw the team that had a coach standing on the field during the play. They deserve to be punished.

Its much the same thing as the banger at first where the SS makes a nice play in the hole vs. the easy play that is bobbled and made alot closer than neccessary, IMO.

And if there was nobody at this game and the pitcher definatly would have gotten the message regardless, then I may just eject because I'm not ending this situation with a "don't do it again". There will either be a penalty or an ejection. No way this clown gets away with it.

I know my words are a little harsh, but that's how I feel about this one. Plus I'm in a pretty blunt mood.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'll ask you again, Mike, how did the coach possibly affect this play and differently than had he issued instructions from the dugout?


The HC is 4 ft inside the chalk line and sees everything happening and yells at F1 to throw to 3rd and he does.



Tim.

You really think both offense and defense are not going to notice/react to a coach running out and standing in the middle of the infield, pointing and yelling orders, while runners are circling the bases?

You may argue that the 'effect' was equal on both sides, or there was no 'advantage gained' or whatever, but I don't know how to argue that there would be no reaction by the players whatsoever.

Do coaches run out onto your fields during live action so often that it's blase?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'll ask you again, Mike, how did the coach possibly affect this play and differently than had he issued instructions from the dugout?

The HC is 4 ft inside the chalk line and sees everything happening and yells at F1 to throw to 3rd and he does.

Tim.

Tim ... I wasn't there. The umpire on the spot was. And I keep saying... if HE thought the coach directly affected the play, then I have no problem with his remedy. If HE didn't ... then he should eject and that's all.

Are you trying to imply that it's absolutely impossible that the defense gained an advantage from having a coach on the field during a live ball, issuing instructions to the defense?

[btdt]

9:01(c)
Coach on the field/ immediate dead ball
Eject Coach
Award runners 3rd & 2nd as runners were advancing to those bases when Coach created dead ball by being on field
No discussion Coach/Hit the showers

[UmpJM]

btdt,

The moron coach coming on the field is not grounds for killing the play. Let the playing action finish and then eject him.

JM

[SAump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I'll ask you again, Mike, how did the coach possibly affect this play and differently than had he issued instructions from the dugout?

The HC is 4 ft inside the chalk line and sees everything happening and yells at F1 to throw to 3rd and he does.

Tim.

1. The defense has 10 young men in LBT, how rare.
2. One of the ten young men has a driver's license, how odd.
3. This person was clearly standing "outside" his box.
4. The correct call was not verbal obstruction, it was time.

Now let me stop. I would have nullified the play, sent the baserunner who was tagged out back to his previous legally obtained base, granted the coach time and told him in a loud voice for all to hear, "You killed it." The coach deserved no better.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

Coach crosses line during live ball action, AFTER being warned not to, he's heading to the parking lot. And award bases as if there was actual obstruction.

Bob

BlueZebra:

You hit the nail on the head. I had this exact same play two years ago in a USSSA Girls' 14U Fast Pitch Tournament. R3 on 3rd and the B walks on four straight pitches. The B/R goes flying down toward 1st while at the same time the defensive HC (she couldn't have been more than 22 or 23 yrs old) comes flying out of the dugout screaming TIME, TIME. She blows right through my stop sign and is half way between the 3rd base foul line and the pitcher's circle by the time the B/R was reaching 1st base. As soon as she crossed the foul line into LBT, I called time. I informed her she had committed obstruction and awarded the B/R 2nd base and R3 home, after which I sent the HC to the parking lot. Every umpire I talked to said that I handled the situation correctly. I do not see my play as any different than the one in the OP.

MTD, Sr.

[UmpJM]

MTD,

What did the coach do that impeded the runners' progress?

I don't know ASA rules, but in a baseball game, I assume you "judged" that, absent the moron coach's actions, the BR would have obtained 2B and the R3 would have scored. What on earth led you to such a judgement?

Also, why did you call "Time" when the moron coach crossed the foul line? In baseball, that would be in violation of Rule 5.10.

Good call on the eject.

I think the rest of it was really poor officiating and you gave the moron coach (actually, her replacement) valid grounds for a protest. I can't understand why you'd be so generous to such a moron. Heck, might as well just give her a "head butt".

JM

[charliej47]

I read over my original post and realized I left out the part where the VHC had asked for "TIME" as he step over the chalk line and I had told him to "Wait please" while the R3 was going to 1st. and R3 was taking off for 3rd.

[David B]

Originally Posted by charliej47

I read over my original post and realized I left out the part where the VHC had asked for "TIME" as he step over the chalk line and I had told him to "Wait please" while the R3 was going to 1st. and R3 was taking off for 3rd.

We could debate all day the after effects of the play; however, the bottomline is that with good game management this should not happen.

One of the things that we cover with coaches in pregame should be to remind coaches that they should be in the dugouts (other thread), and that when they want to enter the field they should wait for all play to be over.

This would and should prevent this type of play, and also the times that a coach might want to come on the field to discuss a rule.

Thanks
David

[ozzy6900]

To be very honest with all of you, I have no freaking clue what the heck charlie47 is talking about. First of all, runners on base are designated as R1, R2 & R3. Batters are B1 and so forth. When B1 draws a walk, he is referred to as B1 until the play is complete. So to be honest, I have no freaking clue how many runners are on to start with or who the heck this R3 going to 1st is supposed to be either.

Next, the scenario takes place in FED rules and I really love how all of the posters start referring to ORB to back up their statements. Tim C. is right, the inmates have in fact taken over this board! If you need to back up your statements at least stay in the rule book that the scenario is placed in somewhere in your posts!

Aside from that (now that the medication has kicked in fully), the last correct thing that charlie47 did was warn the coach not to cross the foul line while play was in progress. Yes, B1 drawing the walk is still a play in progress until he reaches first or any subsequent plays cease.

The coach didn't obstruct anyone but he is not supposed to be in fair ball territory! Notice I didn't say LBT here? This is the case under every rule set there is. Coaches are not players - only players and officials are allowed between the foul lines during play. Please don't even try to argue this because it will just make you look like a real idiot. Coaches are allowed in LBT - how else would they be able to be in the coach's box?

So here we have a coach who did not listen to the umpire and crossed the foul line. "TIME!" All play has to stop - there is an unauthorized party on the field. If you do it correctly, no one will be moving except B1 and anyone that is forced to advance because of the walk.

"Coach, have a nice day, you are ejected". That is all there is to him - no "get off my field" or warning. He is done! Oh, if there was a runner stealing when you called TIME, put him at the base he was stealing to. If you are going to stick the defense make it hurt! After all, it was their coach who thought he was too good to wait for you to call time!

Better life through pharmaceutical intervention!