Dropped 3rd Stike Fiasco

[njdevs00cup]

I've got 13 year olds by myself. Bases loaded, ONE OUT, 2 - 2 on the batter. I remind both the catcher and batter that a third strike in the dirt is an out and stay here. Batter swings at strike three in the dirt. I signal the batter out and his coach starts yelling at him to run to first base. All the runners start to run. The catcher panics. As I'm yelling he's out, stay here, the catcher proceeds to air mail a throw down to first base. The batter caused the throw, because he didn't go directly to his dugout (right handed batter on the away team), the catcher and runners didn't know what to do. What do you do in this situation?

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

1. Don't coach the batter and catcher.
2. Get into position to make a call if you have one.

Yes, exactly.

[njdevs00cup]

Reminding the batter and catcher of the dropped third strike rule is something my assigner asks us to discuss during the pre-game conference with the coaches (13 year old rec. ball, not traveling). Based on the fact the coach was yelling at his batter to run, he doesn't know the rules either. What about the batter causing the throw, because he didn't go to his dugout?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Reminding the batter and catcher of the dropped third strike rule is something my assigner asks us to discuss during the pre-game conference with the coaches (13 year old rec. ball, not traveling). Based on the fact the coach was yelling at his batter to run, he doesn't know the rules either. What about the batter causing the throw, because he didn't go to his dugout?

Fine, do what your assignor asks and remind the coaches during the plate conference.

But don't coach the players.

Are you looking for an excuse to punish the batter/runner? There isn't any.

If the offense is too dumb to know the rule, they get the consequences of the bad throw. When the coach comes out you can always re-remind him of the plate conference discussion.

[njdevs00cup]

My big concern is the batter's responsibility, when he's out. He should be walking to his dugout on the thrid base side. He was half way to first base when the runners started to advance and the catcher panicked and threw to first base.

[jkumpire]

Folks,

Something in me rebels a little bit here with just saying "Don't coach the kids". Look, these kids are 13 years old, playing their first year out from LL rules, and the coach has no clue what is going on. This is a teaching moment for these kids, and somehow we need to make sure they start to understand how real baseball is played. Frankly, I sympathize with our poster here, he wants to do the right thing, and not let the inexperience of a 13 year old kid cost his team a bunch of runs.

Nj, your "mistakes" are: 1, Coaching the Batter and F2, though you did it with good intentions. You were giving them too much data for them to deal with in the situation. The F2 and BR have to concentrate on catching or hitting the ball, adding rules to their thinking will only mess them up. Coaches have to educate them here.

2. (Some people say this is modern "best practice for all umpirirng levels," we'll leave that aside for now). In this case, if you wanted to help the players, you should have yelled out when the Batter missed strike 3: "THE BATTER'S OUT, HE'S OUT," and repeat it if you have to, or even point at him as you say it. You will freeze the batter in his tracks if you do it, and probably the catcher too. So you have gotten to the place where you wanted to go, without being a coach, or giving the kids too much to think about.

Because now in this situation, but not communicating he is out, you are going to have to pull the BR off 2nd base or wherever he is, and send him to the dugout, Now you have people wondering what is going on, and at least one angry coach to deal with.

Sell, even oversell, the out call here, and you solve the problem as best you can.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]

Originally Posted by jkumpire

Folks,

This is a teaching moment for these kids, and somehow we need to make sure they start to understand how real baseball is played.

If you want to teach and make sure the kids understand how real baseball is played then become a coach not an umpire.

Let's turn it around a bit. Would you want a coach teaching a young umpire (on the field) how to position himself etc. or do you as the Partner want to teach the new umpire.

Here's the way it goes and it has served me well.

1. Players play
2. Coaches coach
3. We Umpire

The aforementioned are all different roles out their on the diamond. Even though they try, I do not want coaches umpiring so I in turn should not coach his team.

I agree that the call of batter is out should be emphatic but on the same token I am not going to shout my lungs off and keep saying repeatedly batter is out batter is out.

Eventually, when they mess it up a few times, they will learn.

Hey where's TEE lately on these LL or youth type questions. Now I know why Tee calls it "kiddy ball"

Pete Booth

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

My big concern is the batter's responsibility, when he's out. He should be walking to his dugout on the thrid base side. He was half way to first base when the runners started to advance and the catcher panicked and threw to first base.

njdevs00cup,

The batter, who has just been retired, is doing nothing illegal by running to 1B. It says so in the rules:

Rule 7.09(d) Comment: If the batter or a runner continues to advance after he has been put out, he shall not by that act alone be considered as confusing, hindering or impeding the fielders.

I would agree with others who encourage you not to "coach" the players while the game is in progress. I would also encourage you, at this level, to go BIG with your out call when the batter has not become a runner on a third strike not caught. Repeat it in your best "Dad is mad voice" until it sinks in.

The best way for the players to really learn this rule and how to play it is to let them experience the conseqeunces of not knowing the rule and the situation of the moment.

JM

[Justme]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

My big concern is the batter's responsibility, when he's out. He should be walking to his dugout on the thrid base side. He was half way to first base when the runners started to advance and the catcher panicked and threw to first base.

Umpire the game by the rules....no one cares about your "big concern"... trust me on that one...concern yourself with the rules as written, not as you think they should be. You'll have better games and more fun.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

My big concern is the batter's responsibility, when he's out. He should be walking to his dugout on the thrid base side.

Surely you can think of bigger concerns. You're tilting towards OOO. Move on.

[RPatrino]

I had a situation years ago when doing LL JR's. This was a planned play, with a R3, batter ran to first on a dropped 2ND STRIKE!!!! Partner called time, killed the scoring opportunity and brought the batter back. All I could do is shake my head in disbelief.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

My big concern is the batter's responsibility, when he's out. He should be walking to his dugout on the thrid base side. He was half way to first base when the runners started to advance and the catcher panicked and threw to first base.

Determining what the batter should and should not do is not your responsibility, nor your decision.

[LMan]

I'm still looking for the 'fiasco' part of this situation.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

Reminding the batter and catcher of the dropped third strike rule is something my assigner asks us to discuss during the pre-game conference with the coaches (13 year old rec. ball, not traveling). Based on the fact the coach was yelling at his batter to run, he doesn't know the rules either. What about the batter causing the throw, because he didn't go to his dugout?

You did the reminder thing (it's not something you should be doing ... but if your uninformed assignor things it's a good thing, I guess you have to).

An emphatic "BATTER'S OUT" is plenty in this sitch.

The rest is just runners trying to advance on the pitch - call it as such. Batter running is not interference or anything else. He didn't cause the throw. Catcher's inability to understand both your reminder and you calling the batter out is what caused the throw.

[DG]

Originally Posted by njdevs00cup

I've got 13 year olds by myself. Bases loaded, ONE OUT, 2 - 2 on the batter. I remind both the catcher and batter that a third strike in the dirt is an out and stay here. Batter swings at strike three in the dirt. I signal the batter out and his coach starts yelling at him to run to first base. All the runners start to run. The catcher panics. As I'm yelling he's out, stay here, the catcher proceeds to air mail a throw down to first base. The batter caused the throw, because he didn't go directly to his dugout (right handed batter on the away team), the catcher and runners didn't know what to do. What do you do in this situation?

I don't remind anyone, but by golly, it will take the dumbest catcher on the face of the earth to throw to 1B after I get finished with the OUT call in this situation, and if he does I just stand back and enjoy the outcome.