HS Coach Strikes Umpire

[TwoBits]

Originally Posted by ChrisSportsFan

His hit/push in the face came after the ump thought about offering him a head-butt but stopped before he really got em good. What an ugly situation.

I think the ump more than thought about the head-butt. After the coach got in the umpire's grill, the umpire gave a relatively good retaliation with his mask.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by TwoBits

I think the ump more than thought about the head-butt. After the coach got in the umpire's grill, the umpire gave a relatively good retaliation with his mask.

I don't think so. After viewing that particular sequence several times, I believe the umpire made move towards the coach with his full body, with the movement of head being a reation to, and part of, his body movement. When you view it, watch the umpire's shoulders and torso. His movement towards the coach while probably saying something to the effect of "Don't you EVER touch me again, Gilligan" is understandable.

It looks more agressive due to the presence of his helmet. Had he removed it as he should, the move would not have looked the same.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Had he removed it as he should, the move would not have looked the same.

..and he would have been slapped in the face

[Durham]

Originally Posted by LMan

..and he would have been slapped in the face

L,

What would you do if someone hit you in the face with a HSM? The coach was wrong for putting his hands on the umpire in the first place, but as a man, if this Hall guy hit me in the face with his HSM, well ... let's just say that it is a felony to assault officials and if I was able o keep myself restrained, I think I would be calling Lawump to see what type of charges swung the other way when and umpire struck me as a coach.

He only got slapped as a reaction to being hit in the face.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Durham

L,

What would you do if someone hit you in the face with a HSM? The coach was wrong for putting his hands on the umpire in the first place, but as a man, if this Hall guy hit me in the face with his HSM, well ... let's just say that it is a felony to assault officials and if I was able o keep myself restrained, I think I would be calling Lawump to see what type of charges swung the other way when and umpire struck me as a coach.

He only got slapped as a reaction to being hit in the face.

Don't you think it's a natural reaction for a man to at least push someone off who's right in their face yelling at them. This has never happened to me on the diamond, and hopefully it never will. But my first instinct would have been to go right back at him.


Tim.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Don't you think it's a natural reaction for a man to at least push someone off who's right in their face yelling at them. This has never happened to me on the diamond, and hopefully it never will. But my first instinct would have been to go right back at him.


Tim.

I have been in a few of these. I step back as I am warning the offender about ejection/additional suspension that comes with physical contact/spitting.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by Durham

He only got slapped as a reaction to being hit in the face.

The film clip that I saw went like this
1. Coach was ejected and the PU turned away.
2. Coach followed, reached out and laid hands on the PU.
3. The PU turned around and the coach got in his face.
4. The PU got back in the coach's face, pushing forward in response to the coach's aggressive actions. (He shouldn't have but he's only human)
5. The coach hit the PU.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Justme

The film clip that I saw went like this
1. Coach was ejected and the PU turned away.
2. Coach followed, reached out and laid hands on the PU.
3. The PU turned around and the coach got in his face.
4. The PU got back in the coach's face, pushing forward in response to the coach's aggressive actions. (He shouldn't have but he's only human)
5. The coach hit the PU.

Your #4, the umpire looked like a bobble head when he pushed forward. And he probably only did that b/c he knew he had his mask on.

The umpire that was involved probably didn't sleep well before the HS asso. decided that he did not head butt the coach and no sactions were placed on him.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Durham

Your #4, the umpire looked like a bobble head when he pushed forward. And he probably only did that b/c he knew he had his mask on.

The umpire that was involved probably didn't sleep well before the HS asso. decided that he did not head butt the coach and no sactions were placed on him.

Before the coach RESIGNED and the NCHSAA *correctly* didn't sanction the umpire.

[David Emerling]

Originally Posted by Justme

The film clip that I saw went like this
1. Coach was ejected and the PU turned away.
2. Coach followed, reached out and laid hands on the PU.
3. The PU turned around and the coach got in his face.
4. The PU got back in the coach's face, pushing forward in response to the coach's aggressive actions. (He shouldn't have but he's only human)
5. The coach hit the PU.

I agree with all your observations only I would further characterize it this way ...

Although wrong, the coach approaching the umpire from behind and touching him could not be viewed as physically threatening.

Getting in each other's face was not physically threatening. That happens all the time.

The first physically threatening act was by the UMPIRE when he thrust his mask forward, hitting the coach squarely in the face - to which the coach reacted (understandably) by taking a girlie shove to the umpire - hardly an act that will cause any physical harm - unlike a mask in the face.

There is plenty of blame to go around here. But, in my opinion, the UMPIRE was the only one who engaged in any meaningful, harmful, physical activity.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

[blueump]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I agree with all your observations only I would further characterize it this way ...

Although wrong, the coach approaching the umpire from behind and touching him could not be viewed as physically threatening.

Getting in each other's face was not physically threatening. That happens all the time.

The first physically threatening act was by the UMPIRE when he thrust his mask forward, hitting the coach squarely in the face - to which the coach reacted (understandably) by taking a girlie shove to the umpire - hardly an act that will cause any physical harm - unlike a mask in the face.

There is plenty of blame to go around here. But, in my opinion, the UMPIRE was the only one who engaged in any meaningful, harmful, physical activity.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Maybe its in the eye of the beholder, but that's not the way I saw the video Dave. I clearly saw the coach give the umpire a little shove from behind. The umpire turned and they both went face to face yelling at each other. I think the "head butt" was a collision of both faces as they tried to outscream each other.

Once the coach was tossed, and the umpire turned his back and began walking away, the other umpire should have been there (if at all possible) by then to step between the two.

Besides, the ball did look a little low!

[LMan]

Originally Posted by David Emerling

Although wrong, the coach approaching the umpire from behind and shoving him could not be viewed as physically threatening.

Fixed that for you, and I disagree.

[DG]

I sent the video link to a friend of mine at work, a big baseball fan. He has a tripped plan in late May to 4 major league stadiums in 4 days with some of his baseball buddies.

I told him about what happened and the coach was suspended, but resigned instead.

He came to me later and said "wow, he really did deserve to be suspended, but what did they do about the umpire?" I said "what do you mean?" and he said "he head butted the coach".

[lawump]

Originally Posted by SAump

I hope that whenever I make a mistake, I can find a lawyer that can sell as bad an argument to the jury as well as most of you have here.

I'll take this umpire's case. Sorry, SAump...I think you're wrong.

What does this video show?
(1) A coach arguing balls and strikes (and leaving his position to do so)...which every umpire, coach and player from little league to MLB knows is the quickest way to an automatic ejection.
(2) An umpire ejecting the coach AND turning his back on the aggressor (the coach) and walking away.
(3) The coach physically grabbing the umpire and turning him around. The umpire points at him (and likely, I submit based upon my umpire training, tells the coach "that's a bump" or something of that nature).
(4) The coach takes several steps directly TOWARD the umpire and makes contact with the umpire. THE COACH INITIATES THIS ADDITIONAL CONTACT. The coach's face clearly touches the umpires' mask and he goes chest-to-chest with the umpire. At about the same time the coach quickly brings up both of hands to his chest level, suggesting to a reasonable person that he might be getting ready to push the umpire. THIS ALL HAPPENS BEFORE THE "HEAD-BUTT" THAT SOME ON THIS THREAD HAVE SUGGESTED THE UMPIRE COMMITTED.
(5) At this point, there has been NO SEPARATION between the umpire and coach [Again, the COACH initiated this contact (as described in #4.)]
(6) Then, within a second or two of the coach initiating contact (as described in #4), the umpire's head moves toward the coach. I think there is a very strong argument that can be made that this is nothing more than the head's natural movement when the umpire was yelling at the coach.

BUT EVEN IF THIS WAS AN INTENTIONAL HEAD-BUTT: If I was defending the umpire in some lawsuit that arose as a result of this incident, I'd have a great defense to any claim the coach has arising out of the head-butt. Basically the law says a person can use force in self-defense and such force extends to the use of all reasonable force to prevent any threatened harmful or offensive bodily contact...whether that contact is intentional or negligent.

Again, Coach grabs umpire, coach then steps offensively toward umpire (who again was walking away after the ejection) and contacts the umpire. Furthermore, the coach brings his hands up to chest level in a threatening manner. With a second or two of these actions, the umpire MAY have head-butted the coach. Even if it was a head-butt, this action was clearly "reasonable force" to meet the threat the coach was posing with his contact and threatened contact.

(7) The coach then takes his right hand and pushes the umpire's head after the perceived head butt.

How anyone can suggest that the umpire is the aggressor here is beyond me. Again, he (1) walked away after the ejection. (2) The COACH grabbed the umpire. (3) The COACH after turning the umpire around walked directly AT the umpire AND initiated contact with him. The COACH's face and chest clearly make contact with the umpire. (4) The COACH then raises his hands. (5) Within seconds the UMPIRE either starts yelling at the coach and his natural movements cause contact between his mask and the Coach's head OR he head butts the coach...which I submit is reasonable force to meet the threat posed by the Coach.

[Mike L]

when I first began working baseball many moons ago, I was fortunate enough to have a very good, very wise old veteran mentor me. One of the things he always stressed was a simple rule set in order to get better:

1) realize you will make mistakes
2) recognize and admit the mistakes you make
3) learn from those mistakes and strive to avoid them

making the excuses that his "head movement forward is just a natural physical action to responding" or the "coach was more wrong" or the "coach provoked it" is a failure of point #2 which prevents point #3.