Two different plays

[harmbu]

The following two plays happened in my last two games. FED rules:

Play 1--R1 & R3 one out. Batter hits a sharp ground ball to F6 who immediately flips to F4 for the force out. As F4 turns to throw to first, R1 (who is already out) is about 20 feet from the base still running. F4 alters his throw to keep from hitting R1 and throws the ball away. Do we have anything on this play?


Play 2--R1 & R2. Ground ball to F6. R2 stays on second for some reason. F6 tags R2 first, steps on second and throws late to first base. B1 after legally overruning first base turns and heads toward the first base dugout. At this point F3 retrieves the ball and steps on first base. Just before entering the dugout, B1 attempts to come back to first base. Before he can get there, a confused BU has called time out.

Any rule references on either play would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by harmbu

The following two plays happened in my last two games. FED rules:

Play 1--R1 & R3 one out. Batter hits a sharp ground ball to F6 who immediately flips to F4 for the force out. As F4 turns to throw to first, R1 (who is already out) is about 20 feet from the base still running. F4 alters his throw to keep from hitting R1 and throws the ball away. Do we have anything on this play?

I don't. The runner hasn't had a chance to act on his change in status. Even if he had, I would be hard pressed to judge interference on a retired runner who continued to second without changing his path. That would seem to me to be the action least likely to interfere with the throw.

Play 2--R1 & R2. Ground ball to F6. R2 stays on second for some reason. F6 tags R2 first, steps on second and throws late to first base. B1 after legally overruning first base turns and heads toward the first base dugout. At this point F3 retrieves the ball and steps on first base. Just before entering the dugout, B1 attempts to come back to first base. Before he can get there, a confused BU has called time out.

Any rule references on either play would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

BR is definately safe since he was not put out before time was called. The real question is was BR at risk of being put out. If BR had not yet retouch 1B after overrunning it, I think he is safe from being put out by virtue of the over-running even though he has mistakenly headed for the dugout. If he has retouched 1B, he is in danger of being put out the same as any runner wandering off a base.

[UmpJM]

harmbu,

Play 1: While I would have HThBT to say for sure, based on your description, I would be inclined to call this E4. Some might suggest an FPSR violation. I believe the way the rule is worded leaves enough "wiggle room" to support either call, but I would be inclined towards "That's nothing!" as described.

Play 2: R2 & R1 are out. I'm putting the BR on 1B.

JM

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by harmbu

The following two plays happened in my last two games. FED rules:

Play 1--R1 & R3 one out. Batter hits a sharp ground ball to F6 who immediately flips to F4 for the force out. As F4 turns to throw to first, R1 (who is already out) is about 20 feet from the base still running. F4 alters his throw to keep from hitting R1 and throws the ball away. Do we have anything on this play?

Play on. There was a FED interp on this last year? Or maybe this year.

Play 2--R1 & R2. Ground ball to F6. R2 stays on second for some reason. F6 tags R2 first, steps on second and throws late to first base. B1 after legally overruning first base turns and heads toward the first base dugout. At this point F3 retrieves the ball and steps on first base. Just before entering the dugout, B1 attempts to come back to first base. Before he can get there, a confused BU has called time out.

Any rule references on either play would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

BR out on abandonment. 8.4.2X

[UmpJM]

Bob J.,

BR out on abandonment. 8.4.2X

None of the rule codes provide any specific criteria for the umpire to use in judging at what point the runner has abandoned his effort to run the bases and loses his right to reassert his status as a runner.

The most complete treatment of the subject that I have found is in the JEA. In regards to harmbu's 2nd question, the JEA says in the discussion of 7.08(a)(2):

A batter-runner who inexplicably fails to return directly to 1st base after overrunning it shall not be called out before entering the dugout.

I realize that the JEA is specifically an OBR interpretation source, but I have not been able to find any FED-specific source that would contradict the criteria suggested by Evans, and I would be inclined to use his suggested criteria, even in a FED game.

I was taught that abandonment should be used as "a call of last resort", rather than an easy "unearned out" for the defense.

Is there a FED source on this that contradicts the JEA? At what point in time would you judge the runner was out for abandonment & what are the criteria you would use?

JM

[Carl Cramer]

From NFHS website:

SITUATION 3: With no outs and R1 on first base, B2 hits a hard ground ball to F6. F6 fields the ball and steps on second base and then throws to first base in an attempt to double up B2. R1 is running standing up in a straight line to second and is hit by F6's throw. R1 was not even half way to second base and did not intentionally interfere with the throw. The defensive coach states that B2 should also be out since R1 violated the force-play slide rule. RULING: This is not a violation of the force play slide rule. R1 cannot be expected to slide at that point in the base path. The play stands. R1 would be out only if he intentionally interfered. (8-4-2b penalty

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Is there a FED source on this that contradicts the JEA?

I think the case play I cited has some criteria (but I don't have the books handy right now).

[DG]

1. FPSR - slide or avoid the play. He was close enough to the bag to see he was out on FP.

2. 2 outs for the tag and touch at 2B. If B1 tagged 1B he reached it and had not entered dugout yet, so he stays at 1B assuming there were no outs before the play. If he missed 1B defense can make a dead ball appeal before the runner reaches 1B.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think the case play I cited has some criteria (but I don't have the books handy right now).

Bob,

The only relevant case play I could find was 8.4.2D

The "criteria" offered is:

Upon reaching base a runner abandons his effort when he leaves the baseline. (8-4-2p)

IMHO, that's too freakin' stupid for words.

(edited to add...)

DG,

1. FPSR - slide or avoid the play. He was close enough to the bag to see he was out on FP.

As I said in my original post on this thread, the wording of the rule (as well as the case play Bob J. referenced) would support a call of an FPSR violation - or not. It seems that DG interprets the proper application to be, the rule applies if the runner is close enough to see he is out on the force. Not an unreasonable interpretation to my mind. However, I prefer the equally supportable interpretation that the runner is constrained by the rule when he is close enough to his forced to base that he could be initiating his slide.

I just wish FED would state in plain language under what conditions they want the rule applied. The case play makes it clear that if the runner is "less than halfway" to his "forced to" base, he is NOT constrained by the FPSR. In the sitch posed, the runner is "more than 3/4's" of the way to his forced to base. If I'm making the call, it's nothing. If DG is making the call, the BR is out as well as the R1.

I don't know which call the powers that be at FED would prefer.

JM

[DG]

20 feet away is not close enough to slide but he is close enough to abandon running efforts in a direction away from the fielder to avoid any potential for influencing the play. It's a safety rule, let this pass and one day the runner will get beaned between the eyes when the fielder is NOT influenced by his presence and EXPECTS him to avoid. Call the FPSR in this situation and you will train him (and maybe all the players on both sides) to do what FED wants him to do, avoid injury.

Not calling this is OBR interpretation.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by DG

20 feet away is not close enough to slide but he is close enough to abandon running efforts in a direction away from the fielder to avoid any potential for influencing the play. It's a safety rule, let this pass and one day the runner will get beaned between the eyes when the fielder is NOT influenced by his presence and EXPECTS him to avoid. Call the FPSR in this situation and you will train him (and maybe all the players on both sides) to do what FED wants him to do, avoid injury.

Not calling this is OBR interpretation.

Call it that way and one day the batter will get beaned between the eyes when the fielder IS influenced by his presence and adjusts in the same direction the runner does.

The runner is not required to slide - ever. Even the FPSR does not require the slide only that the slide be legal and away from the fielder if it does occur. The amount of time between the successful put out at second and the throw to first is not sufficient for the runner to react to his change in status in a meaningful way. He must continue to run at full speed until he is put out because he may not assume error-free play by his opponents. He cannot be expected to go from a dead run to turning away in the amount of time it takes for the fielder to make the relay to first.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by DG

20 feet away is not close enough to slide but he is close enough to abandon running efforts in a direction away from the fielder to avoid any potential for influencing the play. It's a safety rule, let this pass and one day the runner will get beaned between the eyes Not calling this is OBR interpretation.

Not calling this is allowing natural selection to take its course.

(color added for emphasis)