"Fanboy" question

[rulesmaven]

Baseball's not my sport, so I'm strictly a fanboy on this one. Interesting play in high school game.

Routine ground ball, 1B drops ball and while the ball is in the dirt grasps it with non-glove hand just before batter/runner touches the bag. The ball is still touching the dirt when the BR touches the bag, but it's not moving withing the fielder's bare hand.

No immediate signal. Two umps talked about the play for some time before calling the runner out. It did not appear there was a dispute about what either of them saw, but instead what the rule was, which was surprising to me because I would assume this is a very common play/case. I thought I over heard some discussion whether the ball was touching the bag -- would it matter?

Just kind of curious.

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Baseball's not my sport, so I'm strictly a fanboy on this one. Interesting play in high school game.

Routine ground ball, 1B drops ball and while the ball is in the dirt grasps it with non-glove hand just before batter/runner touches the bag. The ball is still touching the dirt when the BR touches the bag, but it's not moving withing the fielder's bare hand.

No immediate signal. Two umps talked about the play for some time before calling the runner out. It did not appear there was a dispute about what either of them saw, but instead what the rule was, which was surprising to me because I would assume this is a very common play/case. I thought I over heard some discussion whether the ball was touching the bag -- would it matter?

Just kind of curious.

Assuming F3 had his foot on base at time he grasped ball and before BR touches base, the question between the two of them was probably whether or not F3 had control of the ball. The fact that it's a bare hand vs glove is not the issue. The issue is control of the ball or whether F3 has merely pinned the ball to the dirt. Normally the umpire might shout "show me the ball" to indicate control. Neither apparently did so it becomes a judgment and hence the two umps got together. From the rule book 8-4-1f. I hope this helps

f. after a dropped third strike (see 8-4-1e) or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first base; or if any fielder, while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base:

[rulesmaven]

Yes, sorry should have described the play better -- 3's foot was on the bag. He did not catch the original throw but knocked it down, kept his foot on the bag, bent at the waist and attempted to pick up the ball with his hand, but fumbled it, and then instead of trying again, just closed his hand on the ball, while it was still on the ground next to the bag, just before the runner touched the base. He stayed there just like that for a second or two getting his balance, then lifted the ball in the hand without dropping it.

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Yes, sorry should have described the play better -- 3's foot was on the bag. He did not catch the original throw but knocked it down, kept his foot on the bag, bent at the waist and attempted to pick up the ball with his hand, but fumbled it, and then instead of trying again, just closed his hand on the ball, while it was still on the ground next to the bag, just before the runner touched the base. He stayed there just like that for a second or two getting his balance, then lifted the ball in the hand without dropping it.

If he tried to gain his balance a couple of seconds, I'd probably rule he didn't have control, but it's probably one you have to see in person. Could go either way.

[rulesmaven]

Given the rule you've given, I think they probably got it right. It's kind of hard to describe live action in words on a message board in a sport you're not familiar with. Sounds like the fact that the ball was touching the dirt while the player's hand was on it is not necessarily inconsistent with control, in which case I think that it was fair to say he had "control," even though he was kind of using the hand with the ball to keep his balance. It wasn't moving or anything.

Anyway, thanks.

[DG]

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Routine ground ball, 1B drops ball and while the ball is in the dirt grasps it with non-glove hand just before batter/runner touches the bag. The ball is still touching the dirt when the BR touches the bag, but it's not moving within the fielder's bare hand.

If he has secure possesion in his bare hand, regardless of whether the ball is touching dirt, I have an out as long as his foot is also on the bag before BR arrived.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by DG

If he has secure possesion in his bare hand, regardless of whether the ball is touching dirt, I have an out as long as his foot is also on the bag before BR arrived.

Yes, and it is just the same as if he traps the ball to the ground with his glove. If he comes up with the snowcone, it's an out. If it falls to the ground, safe.

[lawump]

In regards to the OP:

I am not citing any rules in this post (I'm sure someone here could make an argument (with lots of rulebook citations) that the rules call for a specific ruling one way or the other for this play), however regardless of what OBR states, on the professional level a manager/coach would expect me to call the runner "safe" in the situtation described in the OP. I'd probably have to toss the 1B coach if I called him "out".

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Where do you get he if he has control of the baseball in his bare hand on the ground it is an out. Section 2-9-1 Note: When a batted or thrown ball is involved, the above definition of a catch applies. For any other thrown ball, the term is used loosely to apply to a pick up or to the trapping of low throw which has touched the ground. A fielder may have the ball in his grasp even though it is touching the ground while in his glove.

The case book doesn't give any plays where the ball touching the ground while in the fielder's hand is an out.

ST

And it does give a play where the ball is in the fielder's bare hand and touching the ground where the runner is safe?

The point is that touching the ground, in and of itself, does not proclude the fielder having the ball is his grasp. If the fielder is holding the ball, he has grasped it and the runner would be out. If the fielder has merely trapped the ball on the ground, he has not grasped it and the runner would be safe.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

You mean this one.

2.9.1 SITUATION B: B1 hits a ground ball to F6 who throws to first. F3 juggles the ball so that rolls up his arm and is clamped to his body by an elbow or forearm when B1 touches first. RULING: B1 is safe. It is not a catch until the ball is secured by the bare and or glove hand.

I don't think the plays correlate. This would apply more to the original post.

2.9.1 SITUATION A: B1 hits a ground ball to F5. The throw to F3 is wide causing him to stretch for the catch. The ball arrives in time, but as F3 attempts to regain his balance, he drops the ball. Is the runner out? RULING: Attempts to regain balance after receiving the ball are considered a part of the act of catching; and if the fielder does not come up with the ball in his possession, it is not considered a catch. In all cases, judgment is a factor. If the ball is clearly in the fielder's possession and if some new movement not related to the catch is then made, and if the ball is fumbled during such new movement, the umpire will declare it a catch followed by a fumble.

ST

As neither of those involve the ball being in a bare hand and touching the ground, no, I don't mean either of those. Neither of those plays involve a grasped ball in a bare hand touching the ground and aren't relevant.

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

Probably because they don't exist. Where are they and I gladly give them a read.

ST

I don't believe that they exist either. Perhaps I have misunderstood your point. Do you agree that it is possible for a fielder to have the grasped in his bare hand while in contact with the ground causing the runner to be out or, alternatively, to trap the ball between his hand and the ground without grasping the ball allowing the runner to be safe?

[rulesmaven]

I guess now I can see why the officials had a mini-conference. Sounds like the issue is that while a ball can be under control in a glove even while touching the ground, the rules are not clear whether that also applies to a bare hand. It was a somewhat important call too, because it was the third out and a runner would have scored on safe.

Manager, by the way, didn't ask for an explanation and didn't seem bothered. Coach got something like, "that's an out coach," and shrugged.

[David B]

Originally Posted by rulesmaven

Yes, sorry should have described the play better -- 3's foot was on the bag. He did not catch the original throw but knocked it down, kept his foot on the bag, bent at the waist and attempted to pick up the ball with his hand, but fumbled it, and then instead of trying again, just closed his hand on the ball, while it was still on the ground next to the bag, just before the runner touched the base. He stayed there just like that for a second or two getting his balance, then lifted the ball in the hand without dropping it.

You said he picked the ball up with no problem so you could rule it a catch by rule. This is an umpires judgement call as to whether he secured possession before the runner hit the bag.

The rules do talk about having the ball in the glove and touching the ground being a catch, and it could also apply to the bare hand.

I edited to add that in Carl's BRD it confirms that J/R states " a ball is "gloved" when a fielder gains possession of the ball in his hand or glove."

Bottom line is the umpire has to decide did he have control or not and make the call. The rules seem to give a little latitude on this play.

Thanks
David

[bigda65]

Steve T.

If F3 had the ball firmly in his bare hand on top of 1B before the runner arrived, would you have an out? - and why or why not?

Originally Posted by bigda65

Steve T.

If F3 had the ball firmly in his bare hand on top of 1B before the runner arrived, would you have an out? - and why or why not?

Yes - From the rule book 8-4-1f which I posted in my first reply

f. after a dropped third strike (see 8-4-1e) or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the batter touches first base; or if any fielder, while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base: