Being "hung out to dry"

[PeteBooth]

I am going to assume ( I know could be a big mistake) that most if not all us at one time or another have been "hung out to dry"

My question? how do you handle it?

Example: R1 number of outs unimportant.

You are in the "B" position

B1 hits a short pop up near the third base line. Because the pop-up was short F5 makes a diving play.

We all know that this is the PU's call, but now you see him pointing to you to make the call. Now what? The bottom line is that a Call needs to be made and we know the PU is not going to make it otherwise he would already have done so, therefore, you have to.

1. Do you follow the old adage - Cannot call what I don't see or

2. If you have "evidence" ie; You see the expression on B1's face like "that was a heck of a play on the part of F5" or something that gives you Explicit Evidence that it was indeed a catch.

Question number 2.

You know the coach (on whom the call went agaisnt) is going to request TIME and ask you

"Hey Blue how did you see that" or something along those lines.

Finally what's your post game like

In summary: What do you do when your partner "hangs you out to dry" and inevitably is the Coach going to get EJ'd

Pete Booth

[bluezebra]

1..If I don't see a catch, I can't call an out. Give the "safe" signal.

2.."Coach, I didn't see a catch, therefore I cannot call an out." If coach insists on arguing, I warn him/her, that there is no argument, and to return to coach's box, or bench, or head to the parking lot.

Bob

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

1..If I don't see a catch, I can't call an out. Give the "safe" signal.

2.."Coach, I didn't see a catch, therefore I cannot call an out." If coach insists on arguing, I warn him/her, that there is no argument, and to return to coach's box, or bench, or head to the parking lot.

Bob

Do you think there might be room for an educated guess in some situations?

Example: This happened to me a few years ago and yes I still remember it clearly.

I'm PU
R1 1 0ut
Ball is hit to right field, not on the line but to the left and behind F9. PU hustles down TBL to take R1 into third, BU is watching R1 who is watching the play about a third of the way to 2nd.
Ball is caught or not caught by a diving F9, I don't know because I wasn't watching. But suddenly there was that horrible realization that I just blew it really badly, as I look toward RF I see my P signaling out. Not a word from anyone.
Post game: Not exact conversation but close enough
PU "Jim, I obviously screwed up on that fly to right, did you see it?
BU "I had it in the corner of my eye but F9s body blocked me, never saw the catch"
PU " How'd you call it then"
BU "I looked to you for the call, saw that you FUBARed the thing totally, looked back saw the BR tailing off to the visitors dugout, R1 returning to 1st and no one was even looking at us to make a call, easy out"
I shudder to think what would've happened if he signaled safe.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

We all know that this is the PU's call, but now you see him pointing to you to make the call. Now what? The bottom line is that a Call needs to be made and we know the PU is not going to make it otherwise he would already have done so, therefore, you have to.

Pete,

I would reject the absolute statement that I "have to" make the call. It is his call. I do not see him as asking me to make the call, but as asking if I had any assistance to offer. If I had nothing, I would tell him and let him make the call.

Now, to go a step further, if neither of us had a definite out, the call I would advise him to make is safe, but, either way, it would be his call, not mine.

[johnnyg08]

there are a few instances where you can watch the players...sometimes they'll tell you what happened...but not always...I post that comment with the utmost caution...watch the ball, look for the ball, see the ball, make your call.

[Toadman15241]

Originally Posted by PeteBooth

1. Do you follow the old adage - Cannot call what I don't see or

2. If you have "evidence" ie; You see the expression on B1's face like "that was a heck of a play on the part of F5" or something that gives you Explicit Evidence that it was indeed a catch.

Question number 2.

You know the coach (on whom the call went agaisnt) is going to request TIME and ask you

"Hey Blue how did you see that" or something along those lines.

Finally what's your post game like

In summary: What do you do when your partner "hangs you out to dry" and inevitably is the Coach going to get EJ'd

Pete Booth

1. I will first look at the players' expressions to see if I have a catch. If that is not definitive, then I don't have a catch, and signal "safe."

2. "Coach, I believe that the player caught the ball. Anything else I can help you with"

3. My partner and I will be having a stern conversation in the game about hanging me out to dry.

4. I don't think it is inevitable that the coach gets tossed (although it will happen quite a bit). I think that you have to let the coach argue more in a situation like this. I'd probably let him go on for longer than normal and be much more likely to restrict than I normally am.

[TussAgee11]

Not totally relevant to the post, other than the idea that the players attitudes should maybe dicate a catch or no catch.

Bases juiced, no outs. Line shot to F5. I'm PU. I see a hop, I come up with "NO CATCH NO CATCH". It was really close and it took alot of selling. The batter started walking towards his dugout. F5 stepped on 3rd, and tagged the runner coming back to 3rd because (presumably) he thought it was a catch. I think F5, who wasn't that great of a ball player, was confused himself. He stepped on 3rd and then casually tagged the runner who was trotting back to 3rd, seemingly as an assurance that that man was out. Of course, R2 was out, now R3 was out with a tag, and the BR was standing in the dugout.

All in about 4 seconds of action...

[TussAgee11]

About hanging partner's out to dry.

On appeal plays, when it is NOT your call on a missed base or tag, the partner points to you before the appeal! Hell if I know if he missed the bag! I had the ball! What the hell were you doing!

Of course this is an easy call for me, SAFE, because I didn't see anything, but any good manager is going to come pick me apart for it not being my call...

Needless to say this partner and I had a bit of a talk after the game, which was tricky for me because I am the young guy and he is more of a veteran. I wanted to just scream "GROW A SET", but you gotta play the politics!

Similar to the guy that points for help on a swipe tag/pulled foot when he's in A I guess.

[tiger49]

I was completely hung out by a partner last year.

No one on he is U1 I had the dish. There is a line drive down the 1st base line he turns around and straddles the line. I follow BR, as the ball lands he makes no call and turns and runs into the field. During this time I watch BR touch 1B. Upon seeing that no call was made I signal "Fair" at this point my partner who is now half way between 1st and 2nd says "But it was a foot foul!" I responded right away saying "Then why didn't you call it!" The look on his face said; Point me to the nearest rock so I can go hide.

The offensive coach came out and asked what happened but he pretty much knew the answer.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by tiger49

I was completely hung out by a partner last year.

No one on he is U1 I had the dish. There is a line drive down the 1st base line he turns around and straddles the line. I follow BR, as the ball lands he makes no call and turns and runs into the field. During this time I watch BR touch 1B. Upon seeing that no call was made I signal "Fair" at this point my partner who is now half way between 1st and 2nd says "But it was a foot foul!" I responded right away saying "Then why didn't you call it!" The look on his face said; Point me to the nearest rock so I can go hide.

The offensive coach came out and asked what happened but he pretty much knew the answer.

But why did you point fair? You were watching B/R.

It appears that you threw yourself under the bus and then your partner drove it over you.

[tiger49]

Both F3 and BR turned around looked at me with their arms raised ala "WTF" when they saw my partner not make a call. I only signaled fair after seeing my partner head for 2nd and F9 charge in to play the ball. With that I figured it had to be fair and pointed as such as BR started to slow down not knowing what was going on.

[tribefan1952]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Not totally relevant to the post, other than the idea that the players attitudes should maybe dicate a catch or no catch.

Bases juiced, no outs. Line shot to F5. I'm PU. I see a hop, I come up with "NO CATCH NO CATCH". It was really close and it took alot of selling. The batter started walking towards his dugout. F5 stepped on 3rd, and tagged the runner coming back to 3rd because (presumably) he thought it was a catch. I think F5, who wasn't that great of a ball player, was confused himself. He stepped on 3rd and then casually tagged the runner who was trotting back to 3rd, seemingly as an assurance that that man was out. Of course, R2 was out, now R3 was out with a tag, and the BR was standing in the dugout.

All in about 4 seconds of action...

That's a tough play. I had a very similar thing happen when I was coaching a couple years ago, except the ump called it a catch. I was coaching 3rd base so I had a very good angle to see the bounce. I couldn't blame the poor ump too much. It was very, very close to being a catch. I just wish he had called it a catch sooner. Our baserunner at 3rd (my son) was picked off for a double play when he was almost home. I sent him when I saw the bounce. He would have made it easily. I remember it well. In two-man mechanics there are going to be some blind spots, especially with multiple baserunners. It happens. Unfortunately, not all coaches are so understanding.

[soundedlikeastrike]

Collegiate summer ball.
2 man.


R1, R2, no outs. I am in C. My partner and I communicate: INF in effect, I've got the V, flyball PU has the tag of R2, base hit U1 staying home, we are tight.

This is the first time we had worked together and we normally work for different associations. We had a very thourough pre-game.

Batter sends a flair to short LC, no way is this an INF too deep and certainly not routinely catchable.

R2 is yo-yoing about 1/2 way to 3rd, R1 is nearing 1/2 way to 2nd.

I'm sliding towards B to get an angle on the Catch no catch as I'm staightlined by the SS angling out towards CF. SS lays out, ball in and out, I signal "safe no catch".

R2 is now about 10' from second, and is now scrambling towards 3rd and R1 is digging hard for 2nd. SS cat like scoops up the ball. I am anticipating a throw to 2nd for a force on R1. SS fires to 3rd, it looks like a pretty close play from periphial view, with a good hard slide by R2. As I wait, and wait, for a call, I get that really eerie feeling that everyone is looking at me.

As I ever so slowly turn and look for my partner I can't see him, I feel my self turning more and more toward HP, finally I spot him, maybe 10 feet from HP, guess what? He's looking at me too. I had a really "great feeling" that the throw beat the runner for the force at 3RD, but I was really "focusing on" watching R1's touch, then checked BR. I really was "confident" my partner was at 3rd.

So, I really didn't see an out, did F5 touch the bag? So, "Safe" I signals.

D asks for time, hustles on out and asks very politely I'll add, "hey, I think we got him there at 3rd on the force, would you mind asking for help on that one?

Now, I'm knowing it's my call as defined by the "robotic" theory of coverages in the 2 man game, so, I'm thinking "no I won't ask", but then, that fair play and getting it right thing, springs into my head, plus I kinda wanna talk to my partner anyway. So, I confer with my partner.

"Hey, pard, were you enjoying the show back there? Were ya just to busy to help me there? He say's "hey, the first play on the infield is yours".

I say "yeah, ok, but did ya happen to see the play at 3rd, I really felt your presence there, and thought you had it, and I really didn't see it?

He say's "oh yeah the throw beat him by 3-4 steps, he was out by a mile on the force". "Thanks" I say's. Stand tall "out at 3rd I say's".

Now here comes the O skipper. I know, he knows, "out" was the right call, but then, instead of coming over to me, he tracks after U1.

I'm thinking what the? Coach says to U1. "If your gonna change that call, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least hustle up there to make the call". Turns and walks away.

So, who was hung out? Guess we both were. I felt hung out by my partner not reading and reacting to the developing play.

He felt hung out, cause he got a butt chewing, on my behalf.

I sent this out for an "un-scientific" poll on another site. The consensus: I was the one hung out. I can't argue that outcome....

I only share this one, because of the (IMO) necessity of Umpires to "read and react". I too felt hung out, I only say this because of my experiences of when I am U1 in similar situations.

I mean what else am I gonna do back there on this type play?
1) I've already got the tag up of R2.
2) I'm moving up the 3rd base line to assist on the catch no catch, if needed.
3) R2 is hung out, so I know I've got no (very unlikely anyway) chance of a play at the plate, and I recognize there may very likely be a play at either 2nd or 3rd.
4) The most convincing in my mind, is I would have been communicating to my partner, hey Bub, I've got 3rd if he comes.

In our post game: I said where were you man? He says, "I gotta stay home on a base hit there for a play at the plate, and you have the first call on the infield.

I say "didn't you feel the need to react because of the developing play and do to my position".

"Nope", he says, "that was yours all the way".

So, I now, always, bring up the topic of "read and react" at pre-game discussions.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike

"Nope", he says, "that was yours all the way".

I agree with your partner, but he should have comunicated that he was staying / returning home.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree with your partner, but he should have comunicated that he was staying / returning home.

Me too. It belongs to the base umpire, but the PU could've communicated better.