Tough game...couple of questions

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I'm sorry I miscommunicated.

I would not continue play and certainly would not allow a pitch. Certainly I would kill the play, but not because the coach requested it but because we can't play with him at the plate, which is why it is delaying the game.
I would ring up a strike much like I would if the batter refused to get in the box. Dead ball strike. I don't have my Fed book with me but OBR 6.02 (c)
I know this refers to the batter, but it's a delay of game issue. I have no problem applying it to a coach that is in the plate area with out permission.

There were two issues I saw in the OP that I was addressing.
1. His reluctance to eject a coach because of outside pressures.
I presented this option as a way to quickly get the coach back in the dugout or bait him into a very easy ejection.
2. To make the point that IMO the coach should not be allowed at the plate to discuss balls and strikes. In this case a very strong statement can be made short of ejection. I refer back to my 3 advantages of this strategy.

Again I ask, why penalize a kid because his coach is not behaving?

[johnnyg08]

I agree...while working a good plate does establish you as an umpire...working to many in a row can cause issues.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Again I ask, why penalize a kid because his coach is not behaving?

Good Question.
Here's the way I look at it.
One dead ball strike call or even one dead ball K in the life of a high school ball player means virtually nothing to that player an hour after the game is over. I can speak fairly confidently to this having played myself and also having 3 kids that have played HS ball. Although I don't ever remember this specific call being made on them, they certainly have felt they got the wrong end of some very egregious calls. Almost always the call is forgotten before dinner. However, the coach, if he has half a brain will remember the call, the point of the call and the person who made the call for a long time.
So that coach will never approach a plate I'm behind again without permission and the kid will forget the called strike before breakfast.

One quick clarification.
I definitely don't want to dead ball K a kid, so I'm certainly letting the coach know the possible consequences of his actions if I have 2 strikes on the batter, then the onus is on the coach.
I have never dead ball K'd anyone, but I have rung up a strike in this situation, the coach was stunned, he then turned around and went back to his box. I'm sure I got more milage out of that strike than I ever would have got out of an ejection.

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Good Question.
Here's the way I look at it.
One dead ball strike call or even one dead ball K in the life of a high school ball player means virtually nothing to that player an hour after the game is over. I can speak fairly confidently to this having played myself and also having 3 kids that have played HS ball. Although I don't ever remember this specific call being made on them, they certainly have felt they got the wrong end of some very egregious calls. Almost always the call is forgotten before dinner. However, the coach, if he has half a brain will remember the call, the point of the call and the person who made the call for a long time.
So that coach will never approach a plate I'm behind again without permission and the kid will forget the called strike before breakfast.

One quick clarification.
I definitely don't want to dead ball K a kid, so I'm certainly letting the coach know the possible consequences of his actions if I have 2 strikes on the batter, then the onus is on the coach.
I have never dead ball K'd anyone, but I have rung up a strike in this situation, the coach was stunned, he then turned around and went back to his box. I'm sure I got more milage out of that strike than I ever would have got out of an ejection.

I have a real simple question - where in FED does it say you can call a strike on a batter for conduct on the part of the coach? As long as the batter is in the batter's box and the batter has not committed an infraction, you as PU have NO authority to call a strike on the batter in this situation.

The only time an umpire may charge a batter with a strike other than a called strike or swinging strike/foul ball, is for delay of game on the part of the BATTER. See 2-27-1f, 7-2-1e, or 7-3-1 penalty.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

I have a real simple question - where in FED does it say you can call a strike on a batter for conduct on the part of the coach?.

Same place where it says a coach can come to the plate during live ball action to argue about my balls and strikes.

Originally Posted by BigGuy

As long as the batter is in the batter's box and the batter has not committed an infraction, you as PU have NO authority to call a strike on the batter in this situation..

I did it. So I got the authority from somewhere.
I think it's called assumed authority. Your speaking strictly to expressed authority.
And I agree that I overstepped my expressed authority, but it worked so well that given similar circumstances I'll do it again.

Originally Posted by BigGuy

The only time an umpire may charge a batter with a strike other than a called strike or swinging strike/foul ball, is for delay of game on the part of the BATTER. See 2-27-1f, 7-2-1e, or 7-3-1 penalty.

I know the rule. I'm not arguing. But it's a great way to disarm the coach and an easy sell.

[lds7199]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Same place where it says a coach can come to the plate during live ball action to argue about my balls and strikes.



I did it. So I got the authority from somewhere.
I think it's called assumed authority. Your speaking strictly to expressed authority.
And I agree that I overstepped my expressed authority, but it worked so well that given similar circumstances I'll do it again.



I know the rule. I'm not arguing. But it's a great way to disarm the coach and an easy sell.

So, if we don't like the methods available in the rulebook, we should just make up our own penalties? Coaches coming to home plate to argue balls and strikes is covered in the rulebook. It is called an ejection. Instead, you choose to make up your own rule and penalize the batter for the coaches actions. Do you do the same for other situations that are covered in the rules?

[UmpJM]

lds7199,

Well said. Besides, I can't for the life of me understand why an umpire would serve up valid grounds for a protest on a silver platter to a coach who was acting like a di**head.

JM

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by lds7199

So, if we don't like the methods available in the rulebook, we should just make up our own penalties? Coaches coming to home plate to argue balls and strikes is covered in the rulebook. It is called an ejection. Instead, you choose to make up your own rule and penalize the batter for the coaches actions. Do you do the same for other situations that are covered in the rules?

I didn't make up a rule, I made up a penalty.

I have a serious question for you.
Fed rules
Home team at bat R1, R2 no outs

Ground ball to F5 forces out R2
R2 keeps jogging right past 3rd to dug out.
6 feet from dugout R2 takes off helmet while still jogging and 1 second later is in dug out helmet in hand.
You clearly see it.
Are you issuing a warning?
If you answer truthfully then the answer should be no, if you answer yes then I'm sure I can find a sitch to get my point accross.
I think you get my point.
If you answered no
You have just chosen to ignore a safety rule
Do you ignore other safety rules also. You obviously take it upon yourself to arbitrarily decide which rules are important enough to enforce.

If you choose not to penalize a rules infraction haven't you in essence changed the penalty?
We all draw lines within the rule book, it's just a matter of where.
In this case I chose to modify the penalty and got a much better long term result than an ejection would have got me.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I didn't make up a rule, I made up a penalty.

I have a serious question for you.
Fed rules
Home team at bat R1, R2 no outs

Ground ball to F5 forces out R2
R2 keeps jogging right past 3rd to dug out.
6 feet from dugout R2 takes off helmet while still jogging and 1 second later is in dug out helmet in hand.
You clearly see it.
Are you issuing a warning?
If you answer truthfully then the answer should be no, if you answer yes then I'm sure I can find a sitch to get my point accross.
I think you get my point.
If you answered no
You have just chosen to ignore a safety rule
Do you ignore other safety rules also. You obviously take it upon yourself to arbitrarily decide which rules are important enough to enforce.

If you choose not to penalize a rules infraction haven't you in essence changed the penalty?
We all draw lines within the rule book, it's just a matter of where.
In this case I chose to modify the penalty and got a much better long term result than an ejection would have got me.

Not the same thing at all. Overlooking minor or inconsequential infractions is part of the game, sometimes written and sometimes not, but always consistent with the custom and practice of the umpires, and within the expectations of the game participants. Making up penalties as you are with your directed strike turns the game you're officiating from baseball into "Don-ball."

It appears you don't have a problem with that, but you should understand you're in a very lonely camp with that attitude.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I didn't make up a rule, I made up a penalty.

I have a serious question for you.
Fed rules
Home team at bat R1, R2 no outs

Ground ball to F5 forces out R2
R2 keeps jogging right past 3rd to dug out.
6 feet from dugout R2 takes off helmet while still jogging and 1 second later is in dug out helmet in hand.
You clearly see it.
Are you issuing a warning?
If you answer truthfully then the answer should be no, if you answer yes then I'm sure I can find a sitch to get my point accross.
I think you get my point.
If you answered no
You have just chosen to ignore a safety rule
Do you ignore other safety rules also. You obviously take it upon yourself to arbitrarily decide which rules are important enough to enforce.

If you choose not to penalize a rules infraction haven't you in essence changed the penalty?
We all draw lines within the rule book, it's just a matter of where.
In this case I chose to modify the penalty and got a much better long term result than an ejection would have got me.

So, you equate being in LBT for a second without a helmet with penalizing a batter for the actions of his coach?

Not even in the same ball park.

Here's an example that fits: You're upset with your wife, so you spank your kid.

BTW what the hell does "better than though" mean?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

I didn't make up a rule, I made up a penalty.

Did you do this to avoid dumpin the coach? I hope not.

The problem with this is that you're making it difficult for the other umpires who will work this team's games.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Same place where it says a coach can come to the plate during live ball action to argue about my balls and strikes.

I did it. So I got the authority from somewhere. I think it's called assumed authority. Your speaking strictly to expressed authority. And I agree that I overstepped my expressed authority, but it worked so well that given similar circumstances I'll do it again. I know the rule. I'm not arguing. But it's a great way to disarm the coach and an easy sell.

Oh my god. Please stay the hell away from the ballfield in the future. There's no place for umpires with this attitude.

[Don Mueller]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Oh my god. Please stay the hell away from the ballfield in the future. There's no place for umpires with this attitude.

Please, don't give me your better than though attitude.
You ignore rules all the time
What's the difference?

[johnnyg08]

the pro umpires miss between 2 - 4 pitches on average per game...so for somebody to say 10-15 pitches missed at amateur levels...is probably fairly realistic...although missing 10 - 15 pitches per game does seem like a lot as I continue to type...oh well...get better each time out...

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Don Mueller

Good Question.
Here's the way I look at it.
One dead ball strike call or even one dead ball K in the life of a high school ball player means virtually nothing to that player an hour after the game is over. I can speak fairly confidently to this having played myself and also having 3 kids that have played HS ball. Although I don't ever remember this specific call being made on them, they certainly have felt they got the wrong end of some very egregious calls. Almost always the call is forgotten before dinner. However, the coach, if he has half a brain will remember the call, the point of the call and the person who made the call for a long time.
So that coach will never approach a plate I'm behind again without permission and the kid will forget the called strike before breakfast.

One quick clarification.
I definitely don't want to dead ball K a kid, so I'm certainly letting the coach know the possible consequences of his actions if I have 2 strikes on the batter, then the onus is on the coach.
I have never dead ball K'd anyone, but I have rung up a strike in this situation, the coach was stunned, he then turned around and went back to his box. I'm sure I got more milage out of that strike than I ever would have got out of an ejection.

Leave the cheating to the Rats. If you can't call an honest game, find another hobby.