couple of questions

[djmceltic]

I have a couple of questions that spurn from a league I am playing in right now and figured I would get the best results asking the experts.

1. Can someone explain what constitutes an illegal and legal pick? We have had issues in our league were smaller teams basically come up to us and give us "an electric football player" block to the back. Is this legal?

2. If a player shoots the ball behind the 3 point line and a defender blocks/tips the shot and he is standing inside the 3 point line and the ball continues in the basket, is it a 2 or 3 point shot? You wouldn't believe this but had this happen 3 times in one game and at least 6-7 times on the season.

thanks in advance guys

[Back In The Saddle]

1. Screening isn't something I think I have totally nailed yet, so if I lead you astray, somebody will be along shortly to set us straight. But here goes:

The rules are pretty straightforward

• The screener must be set when contact occurs
• If the screener can be seen by the opponent, he can be as close as he wants, short of actually making contact
• It the screener cannot be seen by the opponent, he must give the opponent one normal step before contact
• The screener cannot hold, stick out elbows, knees or hips or otherwise unnaturally delay the opponent.
• If there is no contact, there cannot be a foul no matter what the screener does
• Once he's aware of the presence of the screener, the opponent must go around the screen. Pushing through the screen is a foul on the opponent.

2. The determining factor is where the shooter was when he shot it, not where the defender tipped it.

[djmceltic]

I am not disputing your answer for #2 but it really makes no sense. What's the difference between a defender tipping the ball in or a player on the same team tipping the ball in. Either way the real shooter is the person who touched the ball last.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by djmceltic
I am not disputing your answer for #2 but it really makes no sense. What's the difference between a defender tipping the ball in or a player on the same team tipping the ball in. Either way the real shooter is the person who touched the ball last.

Hmmmm, I'm going to have to disagree with that. The guy who partially blocks a shot that goes in doesn't get the points in the scorebook. The guy who took the shot did.

The difference between the offense and defense tipping the ball before it goes in is this: one is an attempt by the offense to score, the other is a failed attempt to defend against the shot. In the case of the offense, it would be illogical and unfair to award 3 points if the shot were "helped in" by a teammate inside 2 point territory. In the case of the defense, it's all or nothing. If you don't want your opponent to have the three points, you'd better block it all the way.

In fact, I cannot think of a single instance where the defense can do anything that lessens the number of points scored by their opponents. But I can think of several things they could do that would give them the opportunity to score more

It's late, I don't know if the "logic" of my arguments is at all compelling. If not, somebody more awake will be by soon.

[Nevadaref]

BITS is correct on both issues, and he provided a good summary, with the exception that he failed to make a distinction between screening a stationary opponent and one who is moving.
Therefore, I'll just post the exact wording of the NFHS rules on screening and you can read them yourself and hopefully gain a better understanding of the concept.
RULE 10 Fouls and Penalties
Section 6 Contact
ART. 3 . . . A player who screens shall not:

a. When he/she is outside the visual field of a stationary opponent, take a position closer than a normal step from the opponent.
b. When he/she assumes a position at the side or in front of a stationary opponent, make contact with that opponent. It the screen is set within the visual field of a stationary opponent, the screener may be as close to the opponent as the screener desires, short of contact.
c. Take a position so close to a moving opponent that this opponent cannot avoid contact by stopping or changing direction. The speed of the player to be screened will determine where the screener may take his/her stationary position. This position will vary and may be one to two normal steps or strides from the opponent.

d. After assuming his/her legal screening position, move to maintain it, unless he/she moves in the same direction and path of the opponent. When both opponents are moving in exactly the same path and same direction, the player behind is responsible if contact is made because the player in front slows up or stops and the player behind overruns his/her opponent.

If the screener violates any of these provisions and contact results, he/she has committed a personal foul.

A player who is screened within his/her visual field is expected to avoid contact by going around the screener. In cases of screens outside the visual field, the opponent may make inadvertent contact with the screener and if the opponent is running rapidly, the contact may be severe. Such a case is to be ruled as incidental contact provided the opponent stops or attempts to stop on contact and moves around the screen, and provided the screener is not displaced if he/she has the ball. A player may not use the arms, hands, hips or shoulders to force his/her way through a screen or to hold the screener and then push the screener aside in order to maintain a guarding position on an opponent.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by djmceltic
We have had issues in our league were smaller teams basically come up to us and give us "an electric football player" block to the back.

I'm shocked!

Shocked, I tell ya!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by djmceltic
I am not disputing your answer for #2 but it really makes no sense. What's the difference between a defender tipping the ball in or a player on the same team tipping the ball in. Either way the real shooter is the person who touched the ball last.

Not true. The defintion of a shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal. Therefore, by rule and defintion, a defender who gets a hand on a shot is not a shooter.

Not trying to be ugly by why do you come to the experts with questions if you're going to disagree with the answers?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Not true. The defintion of a shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal. Therefore, by rule and defintion, a defender who gets a hand on a shot is not a shooter.

Not trying to be ugly by why do you come to the experts with questions if you're going to disagree with the answers?

It sounds like he's arguing in a way to get a clear picture so he can explain it to other people, rather than to be obnoxious.

[M&M Guy]

Originally posted by djmceltic
I am not disputing your answer for #2 but it really makes no sense. What's the difference between a defender tipping the ball in or a player on the same team tipping the ball in. Either way the real shooter is the person who touched the ball last.

I'm glad other people have chimed in already on this, and I agree with them. I'm not sure if this will help, but consider this - a shot attempt is considered an attempt at that team's designated basket. Let's say A1 gets confused and takes a shot towards B's basket (most common example is after the opening tip and A1 goes the wrong way). As A1 is going up for the "shot", B1 fouls A1. It is not considered a shooting foul, because A1 was not shooting at their designated basket. Hopefully someone can give me the case number or rule number on that, because I don't have my books with me, but I know it's in there. So, using that logic, the defender who tips the shot cannot be considered a "shooter" because they are not "shooting" at their basket. So it doesn't matter where their position is on the floor relative to the 3-point line. I believe there is also a mention about tipped shots in the timing section. If A1 releases a try (say a 3-point attempt), the horn goes off, it is then tipped by the defense and goes in, the 3-point shot still counts.

[M&M Guy]

JR, where do you find pics like that? I think I've seen some coaches with that exact same look as I'm explaining one of my calls...

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
JR, where do you find pics like that? I think I've seen some coaches with that exact same look as I'm explaining one of my calls...

Isn't it obvious? He wasn't trying to be funny, he accidentally left his webcam on!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Isn't it obvious? He wasn't trying to be funny, he accidentally left his webcam on!

Oh, nonononono.....

Nope, don't look anything like that!!!

Nope, not me!!!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by M&M Guy
JR, where do you find pics like that? I think I've seen some coaches with that exact same look as I'm explaining one of my calls...

He scans them from his family album.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Oh, nonononono.....

JR, that's not an Oh-no-no, it's a bo-no-no. I know they look similar, but they're actually different species!

[djmceltic]

Thanks for the input on the rules...even though I disagree with the logic of the ruling on the 3pt shot I do see logic now.

And I am guessing following that logic:

1. Player 1 shoots the ball behind the 3pt line, ball hits Player 2, who is inside the arc, on opposing team on the top of the head (could happen to Yao), and ball falls in hoop.

3 points

2. Player 1 shoots the ball behind the 3pt line, ball inadvertently hits Player 2 which is on the same team and inside the arc, and falls in the hoop.

2 points

3. Player 1 shoots the ball from inside the 3 point line, Player 2 from the opposing team is behind player 1 and outside the 3 point line, and player 2 accidently pushes the ball into the hoop in an attempt to block the shot.

2 points

Are all those correct?

[Edited by djmceltic on Apr 20th, 2005 at 12:49 AM]