Over throw at 1st

[PFISTO]

Ok good morning. Here is my question:
We have a bang bang play at 1st B1 beats the throw from F6 then the throw goes out of play. Should B1 get 3rd?? U2 gave him 2nd and there were no complaints. Since this was a JV scrimmage I did not want to change his call as I was on the plate but I believe he should have gotten 3rd since he beat the throw.
Thanks Mike

[mandotheman]

Remember its not when the ball gets there, its time of the ball when it was released by F6.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by PFISTO

Ok good morning. Here is my question:
We have a bang bang play at 1st B1 beats the throw from F6 then the throw goes out of play. Should B1 get 3rd?? U2 gave him 2nd and there were no complaints. Since this was a JV scrimmage I did not want to change his call as I was on the plate but I believe he should have gotten 3rd since he beat the throw.
Thanks Mike

Getting 2B is the correct call. The batter (and other runners) get two bases from their position at the time of the pitch when the first throw by an infielder goes out of play.

[UmpJM]

Pfisto,

Most likely, the BR should properly be awarded 2B. If this was the first play by an infielder and the BR had not reached 1B at the time the throw left F6's hand, the award is 2 bases TOP, not TOT.

JM

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by mandotheman

Remember its not when the ball gets there, its time of the ball when it was released by F6.

Actually, it's not that either. it's the time of pitch (assuming this was not the tail end of a DP).

[archangel]

Since this was a JV scrimmage I did not want to change his call as I was on the plate but I believe he should have gotten 3rd since he beat the throw.

It doesnt matter if it was a scrimmage or not, its not your place to change his call....

[PFISTO]

Well I just looked it up and yes it's TOP for the first play by infielder ( I do know this ), And I didn't say it was right as I would NEVER attemp to change a call without being asked first by my partner. Good thing as I was wroung. But off the top of my head for some reason I was thinking that since he beat the throw that it changed things but I was wroung.

[PFISTO]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Pfisto,

Most likely, the BR should properly be awarded 2B. If this was the first play by an infielder and the BR had not reached 1B at the time the throw left F6's hand, the award is 2 bases TOP, not TOT.

JM

So you are saying that if BR had reached 1st before F6 threw the ball it would be TOT??

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw

[Blue37]

Since the plate ump has the responsibility for overthrows into deadball territory on this play, doesn't he make the award?

Am I confused?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Getting 2B is the correct call. The batter (and other runners) get two bases from their position at the time of the pitch when the first throw by an infielder goes out of play.

Rich,

You are rarely inaccurate, so this surprised me. You meant to say "first PLAY" rather than first throw, right?

--Rich

[UmpJM]

PFISTO,

So you are saying that if BR had reached 1st before F6 threw the ball it would be TOT??

Yes, (assuming any other runners had also reached their advance base at the time the throw left the fielder's hand), that's what I'm saying.

Because that's what the rule you quoted, and the 7.05(g) A.R., say.

JM

[LMan]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Since the plate ump has the responsibility for overthrows into deadball territory on this play, doesn't he make the award?

Yes. The BU should be in the process of leaving "A" and moving 'inside' for a possible advance to 2B.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by PFISTO

So you are saying that if BR had reached 1st before F6 threw the ball it would be TOT??

Yes.

Example: Nobody on, ball hit to short. The fielder bobbles the ball a couple times, bends down to retrieve it, then fires to first in a futile attempt to retire B1, who's well past the bag. At the time F6 released the ball, B1 had passed first base. Ruling: 2-base award from time of throw and not pitch. B1 is awarded third base.

Such a situation is admittedly exceedingly rare. Remember, too, that if there are runners on base, ALL of them must reach their advance base in order for a TOP award to become a TOT award. If even ONE runner doesn't reach his advance base, then the first play by the infielder is a TOP award.

There's a question on the NCAA quiz #1 on this very subject.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Rich,

You are rarely inaccurate, so this surprised me. You meant to say "first PLAY" rather than first throw, right?

--Rich

He probably meant that, but when an infielder throws to retire a runner, the throw is the first play.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mandotheman

Remember its not when the ball gets there, its time of the ball when it was released by F6.

Uhhhh...no. Position of runners at time of pitch.