base awards

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

1) Award home, otherwise you are telling the defense that he has to retag. If the runner goes back and re-tags, THEN you change the award to third base.

R1 running on the pitch.

You are not telling the defense anything that they already do not know.

R1 was off with pitch and the ball was caught.

Everyone in the park knows that R1 has to go back and retouch first base.

The award in the scenario given is third base.

Here's where you award the runner home base.

R1: B1 singles

R1 misses second base and is trying for third. The defense in making a play on R1 at third base and throws the ball into DBT.

In the aforementioned scenario even though R1 missed second base you still award R1 home because if you didn't then you just told the defense that R1 missed second base.

2 totally different situations.

In the first situation you award the runner third because everyone knew that R1 had to retag 1st base and you are not "tipping the balance of power".

In the second scenario you award the runner home because to do otherwise you are "tipping the balance of power"

Pete Booth

[Rich Ives]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

R1 running on the pitch.

You are not telling the defense anything that they already do not know.

R1 was off with pitch and the ball was caught.

Everyone in the park knows that R1 has to go back and retouch first base.

The award in the scenario given is third base.

Here's where you award the runner home base.

R1: B1 singles

R1 misses second base and is trying for third. The defense in making a play on R1 at third base and throws the ball into DBT.

In the aforementioned scenario even though R1 missed second base you still award R1 home because if you didn't then you just told the defense that R1 missed second base.

2 totally different situations.

In the first situation you award the runner third because everyone knew that R1 had to retag 1st base and you are not "tipping the balance of power".

In the second scenario you award the runner home because to do otherwise you are "tipping the balance of power"

Pete Booth

My comment is based on the MLBUM. I'll take their interpretation over yours.

MLBUM Section 5.10.


"Play: Runner on first, one out. Batter flies out to right field for second out. However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught. Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into the dugout. Runner is between second and third when
the wild throw is made.

"Ruling: Runner is initially awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw). However, while the ball is dead, the runner must return to and retouch first base. Furthermore, because the runner was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return
to first before reaching and touching third (his next base). If the runner touches third, he may not return to first; and if the defensive team appeals, the runner is out at first. However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base)."

[newump]

thanks for all the info. i still don't like the idea of the defense getting two cracks at an appeal.

is there anywhere i can get a copy of the mlbum?

[newump]

and why is the runner allowed to retouch. hasn't he touched a base (2nd) beyond the base he has left early??

OBR 7.10 approved ruling - 'when the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by newump

and why is the runner allowed to retouch. hasn't he touched a base (2nd) beyond the base he has left early??

OBR 7.10 approved ruling - 'when the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.

JM and I both answered that.

The OBR rule means you can't retreat if you touch the next base AFTER the ball became dead.


"i still don't like the idea of the defense getting two cracks at an appeal."

You don't have to like it but you have to allow it.

You can either comprehend and move on or remain a new ump forever. Your choice.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by newump

thanks for all the info. i still don't like the idea of the defense getting two cracks at an appeal.

is there anywhere i can get a copy of the mlbum?

Then don't consider the live-ball action an appeal. It's merely throwing the ball to F3. Yeah - you probably can assume that this is for the purposes of an appeal, but since it's a live ball, it could be any number of things, conceivably. Don't consider that play an attempt at an appeal while the ball is still live until the play actually BECOMES a live-ball appeal (ie - someone with the ball touching the appeal base), and you won't have any trouble with the logic of allowing a dead-ball appeal at this base later.

From the FED 8-3-5
ART. 5... An award is from the base determined as follows:

a. If the award is the penalty for an infraction such as a balk, use of detached player equipment, or an illegal glove/mitt, the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.
b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw.


The above would tend to indicate the runner is awarded 3rd.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by BigGuy

From the FED 8-3-5
ART. 5... An award is from the base determined as follows:

a. If the award is the penalty for an infraction such as a balk, use of detached player equipment, or an illegal glove/mitt, the award is from the base occupied at the time of the infraction.
b. If any pitch (batted or unbatted) is followed by a dead ball before the pitcher is in position for the next pitch and before there is any throw by the fielding team, any award is from the base occupied at the time of the pitch.

When a runner, who is returning to touch a base after a batted ball has been caught is prevented from doing so because a thrown live ball has become dead (5-1-1g), his award shall be from the base he occupied at the time of the pitch. In any situations other than (a) or (b), on a batted ball which is the first play by an infielder, all runners including the batter-runner are awarded two bases from their positions at the time of the pitch. For purposes of this rule, the act of fielding is not considered a play. If every runner, including the batter-runner, has advanced one base at the time of the first play, the award is two bases from the time of the throw. For any subsequent play by an infielder or for any throw by an outfielder, the award is two bases from the time of the throw.


The above would tend to indicate the runner is awarded 3rd.

We know that. That's the "ultimate" award any time. How it is handled is different in OBR and FED.

Also, in FED for the play at hand, the runner cannot re-tag first. In OBR he can.

[midtnblu]

....so in FED, R1 has passed 2nd base and ball is thrown to DBT. R1 now starts to retreat to 1st but by rule he can't...

Do you simply stop him in his tracks and award/force him to 3rd base?