Arguing

[mandotheman]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

I can see your point. But (you had to know that was coming), how do you handle the coaches that you don't really know?

For instance, in CT during State Playoffs, there comes a time when umpires are not permitted to work the games that include schools from their regular season area. Therefore, many umpires are walking into a very intense game and they have either never met, or barely know the coaches.

How does an umpire let these coaches know that (s)he is not willing to discuss judgement calls?

Just quoting on handling coaches you dont know in high ranking games. (state playoffs) First the coaches know that you are qualified to do the games and yes they are going to try you. If you as an umpire know your job and have confidence in yourself, then you shouldn't have a problem. In my pregame meetings I let the coaches know how we are going to handle the game. This includes balls and strikes and judgement calls...lets play ball

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mandotheman

In my pregame meetings I let the coaches know how we are going to handle the game. This includes balls and strikes and judgement calls...lets play ball

If true, you're talking too much in your plate conference.

[PFISTO]

Well my spin on this is as I have played ball since a kid and have managed all levels thru American Legion including H/S (As an assit.)
During the pre game if the timimg is correct as in a manager may ask some questions about a previous call or what ever, I will tell him that I don't have a problem with him asking for an explaination about a call as long as it doesn't get in the way of the game and it's handled with respect. Now this situation does not allways come up so usally it happens during the game and I will respond depending on how the coach comes to me.
I believe that a good spirted disagreement is part of the game and that I should be able to manage it correctly and not let it get out of hand. Now if a coach comes running out of the dugout acting like Lou Pinnela he will have a very short leash as in a simple answer "Hey coach I was in postion and I saw the play" thats it and if he continues to push he will get a very clear warning that the conversation is over.
Now the problem is what happens when perhaps you got caught out of postion or missed the call and you have questiond your call in your own mind and the coach comes out and there is no doubt what his intentions are. Now we all try and keep these events down to a minimum if any at all but it does happen. Now depending on the relationship you have with your partner and the type of play it was and if the coach ask's with respect if we could ask for help I might ask for help. But no matter what happens never let them see you sweat. Even if you blew it and everyone knows you did, let him say his peace and end it, this is part of the game as far as I'm concerned. None of this applies to balls and strikes.

[ozzy6900]

Well to start with, the plate meeting is no place to discuss anything but the ground rules and get the managers to agree that their players are properly equipped (notice I said managers). You don't discuss rules, how you are calling the game or any of that crap! The only other point that should be discussed is if you are instructed (on the rare occasion) to give pre-game warnings due to a bean ball war (that will come from your assigner). The meeting should be over in less than a minute.

As far as discussion of judgment calls goes, when a manager (there's that word again) comes out, I let him talk a bit then I ask him simply "Are we discussing your judgment or mine, coach?". That is usually enough to stop that BS from occurring again. I try to keep it quiet simple but I make sure that they realize that I am not entertaining any discussion on my judgment. I will always allow a manager to question a rule point or application (short discussions) but never judgment. You kind of learn this over the years.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ozzy6900

Well to start with, the plate meeting is no place to discuss anything but the ground rules and get the managers to agree that their players are properly equipped (notice I said managers). You don't discuss rules, how you are calling the game or any of that crap!

My typical plate conference:

I first collect two copies of the lineups from both head coaches and scan them for obvious issues. I hand one copy of the lineups to appropriate head coach.

Turning to home head coach: "Coach would you take us around the field?"

After he covers the ground rules, I ask: "Is everyone legally equipped?"

After receiving a positive response from both coaches I wish them luck, shake their hands and move away from the plate to allow the catcher to set up.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by GarthB

My typical plate conference:

I first collect two copies of the lineups from both head coaches and scan them for obvious issues. I hand one copy of the lineups to appropriate head coach.

Turning to home head coach: "Coach would you take us around the field?"

After he covers the ground rules, I ask: "Is everyone legally equipped?"

After receiving a positive response from both coaches I wish them luck, shake their hands and move away from the plate to allow the catcher to set up.

Great plate meeting! I do the same but I don't wish anyone luck. I tell them, "Have a good game". That's just me being me!

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by GarthB

My typical plate conference:

I first collect two copies of the lineups from both head coaches and scan them for obvious issues. I hand one copy of the lineups to appropriate head coach.

Turning to home head coach: "Coach would you take us around the field?"

After he covers the ground rules, I ask: "Is everyone legally equipped?"

After receiving a positive response from both coaches I wish them luck, shake their hands and move away from the plate to allow the catcher to set up.

The only thing I do in addition to these items is to ask them if they have any questions.


Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by GarthB

My typical plate conference:

I first collect two copies of the lineups from both head coaches and scan them for obvious issues. I hand one copy of the lineups to appropriate head coach.

Turning to home head coach: "Coach would you take us around the field?"

After he covers the ground rules, I ask: "Is everyone legally equipped?"

After receiving a positive response from both coaches I wish them luck, shake their hands and move away from the plate to allow the catcher to set up.

I do just the opposite -- ask the "legally equipped" question first, then ask the coach to cover the ground rules.

The point is, that's enough.

[TussAgee11]

In more rec/ informal league play, I run into the problem of walking onto the field with my partner, and having the home team already throwing the ball around, ready to go, and on the field warming up. The pitcher already has the game ball (even if its 5-10 minutes before game-time). It's like when they see us starting to walk from the field they just get ready.

So then I have to play a game with the home team coach. "Hey, lets do pregame over here". What should my response be to that?

I know it should be done at homeplate, but when the pitcher has the ball, am I going to just stand there and piss off a coach for a logistical reason?

This only pretains to games where there isn't a TD, because they will provide the balls of course.

[DG]

Originally Posted by GarthB

My typical plate conference:

I first collect two copies of the lineups from both head coaches and scan them for obvious issues. I hand one copy of the lineups to appropriate head coach.

Turning to home head coach: "Coach would you take us around the field?"

After he covers the ground rules, I ask: "Is everyone legally equipped?"

After receiving a positive response from both coaches I wish them luck, shake their hands and move away from the plate to allow the catcher to set up.

I usually don't get but one copy, which is fine by me. I ask the coaches if their players are properly equipped, remind them that sportsmanship is expected, and then ask the home team manager to cover the ground rules. I don't think I have wished anyone good luck, but I am sure I have said "have a good game".

[BlueLawyer]

The topic originally was "arguing"- the length and breadth of the plate conference developed as what I like to call in my business a "tangent."

OBR 9.02 does say (my paraphrase) "Don't argue."

What's an argument? Here comes the proverbial cutter pitch. You ball it. F2 asks you, politely and so only the two of you can hear, "Hey, blue, where was that pitch?" I'm likely to tell him. If on the other hand, his coach (around here, we don't usually call them skip or manager) asks the question from the dugout, he now has my attention. He may or may not get run, depending on a lot of factors. We all have different tolerances for BS. Knowing where to find and draw that line is an art- one I'm still working on myself.

Strikes. Outs. Beer.

[uxley11]

I don't know when the first time you ejected someone during your umpiring career, but I felt my first came very soon. Like I have said in other forums, I just started out. I did 85 games last year. I only had 1 ejection, and that was because the coach argued every single call. Finally. I told him complain again and your gone. Well, 10 pitches later he complaiend about a strike being a ball so I gave him the hook. This probably isn't on topic, but I don't understand how coaches in the 8-12 year old range can honestly be arguing balls,strikes, or anything for that matter. 95% of the time when there is a play in the infield the ball won't get to the firstbaseman. And even when it does I'd say they only convert the play 1% of the time. And with the strike zone you have to be very lenient because of the age I am calling.

I don't take **** from any of the coaches. Especially, since half the coaches don't know anything about the rules of their age group. And plus there has to be an embarassment factor when a person half their age is giving them the boot. My opinion though.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by uxley11

I don't know when the first time you ejected someone during your umpiring career, but I felt my first came very soon. Like I have said in other forums, I just started out. I did 85 games last year. I only had 1 ejection, and that was because the coach argued every single call. Finally. I told him complain again and your gone. Well, 10 pitches later he complaiend about a strike being a ball so I gave him the hook. This probably isn't on topic, but I don't understand how coaches in the 8-12 year old range can honestly be arguing balls,strikes, or anything for that matter. 95% of the time when there is a play in the infield the ball won't get to the firstbaseman. And even when it does I'd say they only convert the play 1% of the time. And with the strike zone you have to be very lenient because of the age I am calling.

I don't take **** from any of the coaches. Especially, since half the coaches don't know anything about the rules of their age group. And plus there has to be an embarassment factor when a person half their age is giving them the boot. My opinion though.

95% of the time when there is a play in the infield the ball won't get to the firstbaseman. And even when it does I'd say they only convert the play 1% of the time.

Your league must be really really bad. Heck, Tee-Ball teams get outs at first more than 1% of the time.

OK, you just started out so you're still learning. Make sure you understand that you are still learning.

I don't understand how coaches in the 8-12 year old range can honestly be arguing balls,strikes, or anything for that matter.

Arguing is easy - though perhaps unwise. BTW, it's very easy to see high/low from the dugout.

And with the strike zone you have to be very lenient because of the age I am calling.

There's a big difference between lenient and inconsistent. Inconsistent will get a lot more comments from the dugout. And don't become so lenient that unhittable pitches are called strikes. Perhaps your "very lenient" falls into the later.

[uxley11]

i don't know how kids that age can be any better though. This was fall ball so there were 8 years old preparing to play 9 year old ball next season.

That was the only coach the whole year that said there was a problem with my strike zone. And just to let everybody know, our association will NOT let him coach again this year. What a coincidence.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by uxley11

...SNIPED... I only had 1 ejection, and that was because the coach argued every single call. Finally. I told him complain again and your gone. Well, 10 pitches later he complaiend about a strike being a ball so I gave him the hook....SNIPED...

Never give an ultimatum to a coach! If you say to a coach "One more word and you are gone", and he says "Sorry, Blue", you have to throw him out! If you don't, you haven't kept your part of the ultimatum! Pretty silly, isn't it?

In your situation, just go to the coach and say "We are not going there today, coach! Do I make myself clear?" and do it early on. Don't allow pi$$ing and moaning about balls and strikes. If you let it fester for 3 innings, you can only blame yourself!

Originally Posted by uxley11

...SNIPED...I don't take **** from any of the coaches. Especially, since half the coaches don't know anything about the rules of their age group....SNIPED...

Be careful here. Make sure you know who the manager is and make sure that he is the only one who talks to you. He gets a little tolerance so let him have his say to a point. If he gets personal verbally ("You are horrible" as opposed to "That's a horrible call"), abusive or makes any physical contact, he's gone.

As far as who talks to you, here's the general rule of thumb I was taught:

Players - They get a smile and not much more. I'll talk to them politely about the weather and stuff like that but if they start arguing, they will be dismissed.

Base Coaches - They have no business arguing calls with me. The only discussion I want with them is "How's the wife & kids". Their job is to coach the players. If they start arguing, they usually are not long for the game.

Manager - He has the right to confront me. He is my contact to the team and he and only he speaks for the team. I will give him my undivided attention should he want to discuss (and I mean discuss) a call or decision. When he starts to repeat or when I feel he has had his say, I tell him that we are done and we are getting back to the game. I then hustle back to my position or the outfield. If he follows me, he's more than likely getting an early dismissal from the game.

Scorekeepers, Tournament Directors - Not one word is allowed! If they have a comment, they are gone - period. I've tossed 5 tournament directors in my time that thought they would intercede on an ejection or a ruling. I do not allow them on the field - period!

Fans & Parents - Not my problem. If they become a problem for me, the game is halted until someone with authority remedies the problem. If the problem doesn't go away, the game is over!

I do not and never recommend an umpire dealing with anything outside the fence. Only NCAA has specific rules that cover an umpire's legal power outside the confines of the field.