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Old Tue Aug 28, 2001, 08:07am
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I'm not going to discuss the Danny issue but the LLWS in general. I will use the Olympic Games as my reference.

In the early days of the Olympics, strictly amateurs were involved. We have the remarkable accomplishments of Jessie Owens , Bill Toomey, Jim Ryan , Kip Keno and many many others. The thing they had in common is that they were all amateurs and the games had excitement in them.

What have the Olympics become - another greed hungary business. We now send our professional athletes over to the games and say we want to even up the score , however, I think we can all admit that sending our PRO Basketball Team to the Olympics is a joke. There's no doubt that if they really wanted to, they could beat teams at will by over 50 points.

Ok let's get back to LL. I know we had the Taiwan incident, but in general LL used to be pure, but watching the games at least in my view, even LL is becoming tainted

Forget the Danny issue for a minute - Did you check out the teams that made it - both domestically and internationally?

These kids played Sound Fundamental baseball - meaning they played together for a long time. I believe (do not have the book with me ) that the LL rule states that there are only certian times in the year, where an All Star Team made up of players from a particular association can practice and play as 1 unit.

In watching the games, I do not know if that statement is entirely true. These kids hit the cut-off man, were positioned properly, had excellent communication bewteen themselves and the coaches. You do not get that good simply practicing in select times throughout the year.

I know there's travel ball, but even the Florida coach commented on how long his kids have been playing ball together as 1 unit.

Therfore, is everyone, not just the Bronx Team, playing by the rules? Should LL investigate these other programs and see if they are playing by the rules? Personally I think LL would be shocked to find out the truth?

Why? - Even LL is becoming Big Business - Did you check out the crowds and all the TV exposure. Also, the US wants to put a good product out there on the field.

In Conclusion: Either everyone plays by the rules or simply change them. The areas of concern after a few months will probably be swept under the rug until next year.

Perhaps the other teams are catching a break because everyone in LL is strictly focusing on Danny's Birth Certificate when they should be focusing on the entire LL program as a whole.

Pete Booth
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Old Tue Aug 28, 2001, 08:49am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBooth
I'm not going to discuss the Danny issue but the LLWS in general. I will use the Olympic Games as my reference.

In the early days of the Olympics, strictly amateurs were involved. We have the remarkable accomplishments of Jessie Owens , Bill Toomey, Jim Ryan , Kip Keno and many many others. The thing they had in common is that they were all amateurs and the games had excitement in them.

What have the Olympics become - another greed hungary business. We now send our professional athletes over to the games and say we want to even up the score , however, I think we can all admit that sending our PRO Basketball Team to the Olympics is a joke. There's no doubt that if they really wanted to, they could beat teams at will by over 50 points.

Ok let's get back to LL. I know we had the Taiwan incident, but in general LL used to be pure, but watching the games at least in my view, even LL is becoming tainted

Forget the Danny issue for a minute - Did you check out the teams that made it - both domestically and internationally?

These kids played Sound Fundamental baseball - meaning they played together for a long time. I believe (do not have the book with me ) that the LL rule states that there are only certian times in the year, where an All Star Team made up of players from a particular association can practice and play as 1 unit.

In watching the games, I do not know if that statement is entirely true. These kids hit the cut-off man, were positioned properly, had excellent communication bewteen themselves and the coaches. You do not get that good simply practicing in select times throughout the year.

I know there's travel ball, but even the Florida coach commented on how long his kids have been playing ball together as 1 unit.

Therfore, is everyone, not just the Bronx Team, playing by the rules? Should LL investigate these other programs and see if they are playing by the rules? Personally I think LL would be shocked to find out the truth?

Why? - Even LL is becoming Big Business - Did you check out the crowds and all the TV exposure. Also, the US wants to put a good product out there on the field.

In Conclusion: Either everyone plays by the rules or simply change them. The areas of concern after a few months will probably be swept under the rug until next year.

Perhaps the other teams are catching a break because everyone in LL is strictly focusing on Danny's Birth Certificate when they should be focusing on the entire LL program as a whole.

Pete Booth
Pete,
Along that line, the European Champions in Senior Softball had no apparent affiliation with Little League until the Tournament.
mick
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Old Tue Aug 28, 2001, 09:05am
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I tend to agree, Pete. I see the Danny Almonte situation as epitomiacal of what is wring with LL today. It seems to me that parents and coaches ruin the game and the kids just go along. Do you think Almonte's coach or many LL officials knew he was 14? I doubt it; they had no way of knowing that the DR government allows multiple birth certificates, or that Almonte's dad pulled a fast one on them. Instead, the LL officials (administration and umpires) do their best to deal with the coaches and parents while still "doing it for the kids." The problem is not something that is much under LL's control; I doubt any action could make the operation more kid-centered.

Does PONY, Cal Ripken, or AAU 12U have any of the same problems?

P-Sz
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Old Tue Aug 28, 2001, 09:32am
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Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski

Does PONY, Cal Ripken, or AAU 12U have any of the same problems?

Patrick do not know the answer, but I have been told that the Cal Ripken League is picking up popularity, because in their select 12 yr. old program, they play real baseball . I think (not sure perhaps someone who has a child in the prgram can comment) the mound is 54ft. not 46 ft. and the bases are 75ft. not 60 ft. In addition, the runners can lead off and slide anyway they want provided it's not malicious of coarse. Also, they can run on a dropped third strike.

As with anything in life, we really do not know what the problems are until the spotlite shines

Pete Booth
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Old Tue Aug 28, 2001, 12:26pm
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Clarification

"Cal Ripken" is not a league unto itself as is PONY or LL. It is a lower level division of Babe Ruth. I don't know about so called "Select Cal Ripken", but at the Eastern WA Babe Ruth Tournament, the Cal Ripken level could not lead off or steal until the ball reached or passed the catcher.

Hardly what I would refer to as "real baseball."

In PONY baseball at that same level, local PONY associations have a choice to allow leading off and stealing or not. At tournament time, the choice is removed and leading off and stealing is permitted.

GB
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Old Tue Aug 28, 2001, 09:37pm
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USSA Baseball also allows the kids to lead off and run on uncaught 3rd strikes in all divisions except coach pitched ball.
Makes for better games and better players, IMO.

Roger Greene,
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Old Wed Aug 29, 2001, 01:45am
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Quote:
Originally posted by PeteBooth
In addition, the runners can lead off and slide anyway they want provided it's not malicious of coarse.
The American Academy of Pediatrics says, "Hey, little kids are getting paralyzed from diving head first."

Babe Ruth's Cal Ripken League says, "Pish-tosh, we want to play real baseball."

Amazing.
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Old Wed Aug 29, 2001, 08:49am
Rog Rog is offline
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Question what do the statistics show?

Jim:
Curious, any chance you have the statistics from that report?
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Old Wed Aug 29, 2001, 02:51pm
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Question RE: Diving

Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Porter


The American Academy of Pediatrics says, "Hey, little kids are getting paralyzed from diving head first."

Babe Ruth's Cal Ripken League says, "Pish-tosh, we want to play real baseball."

Amazing. [/B]
Jim, your sure that they referring to baseball
sliding or diving as from a diving board?

Kinda wondering!

glen
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Old Wed Aug 29, 2001, 03:50pm
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Head and neck injuries in sports

Neck Injuries: Urgent Decisions and Actions
John Wiesenfarth, MD, MS; William Briner, Jr, MD
Emergencies Series
Editor: Warren B. Howe, MD

THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 24 - NO. 1 - JANUARY 96


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Of the 6,000 to 10,000 spinal cord injuries reported each year, motor vehicle accidents account for 35% to 45%, and falls for 25% to 30% (1). Most of the rest are related to sports, especially football, rugby, ice hockey, soccer, diving, gymnastics, and wrestling (2-4). Nevertheless, catastrophic neck injuries are infrequent in sports, with a prevalence of less than 2/100,000 neck injuries (3). One sport has especially reduced the incidence: Fewer than 10 football players each year have sustained permanent injury to the cervical spinal cord since 1977 (5)."
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No mention of baseball in the listing of sports in which spinal injuries occur annually.
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Old Wed Aug 29, 2001, 05:05pm
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Re: Head and neck injuries in sports

Quote:
Originally posted by GarthB
Neck Injuries: Urgent Decisions and Actions
John Wiesenfarth, MD, MS; William Briner, Jr, MD
Emergencies Series
Editor: Warren B. Howe, MD

THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 24 - NO. 1 - JANUARY 96


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Of the 6,000 to 10,000 spinal cord injuries reported each year, motor vehicle accidents account for 35% to 45%, and falls for 25% to 30% (1). Most of the rest are related to sports, especially football, rugby, ice hockey, soccer, diving, gymnastics, and wrestling (2-4). Nevertheless, catastrophic neck injuries are infrequent in sports, with a prevalence of less than 2/100,000 neck injuries (3). One sport has especially reduced the incidence: Fewer than 10 football players each year have sustained permanent injury to the cervical spinal cord since 1977 (5)."
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No mention of baseball in the listing of sports in which spinal injuries occur annually.

There's a good reason for that. The study you quote above was not exclusively for ages 5-14 playing baseball and softball. The American Academy of Pediatrics issued their warning about head first slides for only children around 10 years old. It is not surprising that such a report does not include such rigid case studies.

What I think is even more interesting is that the quote Garth provided seems to give credit to football for reducing the incidence of "spearing". This is the same potential cervical spinal injury that Little League is trying to prevent by prohibiting head-first slides.

It is not the frequency of spinal injuries in children around 10-years-old that facilitated the rule prohibiting head-first sliding. Admittedly, the number of incidents are low. But the severity of the injury is alarming enough that any youth league with children 10 and under should take a very serious look at head-first slides.

Do we have to have documented reports of dozens of children in wheelchairs before even considering the prohibition of this slide? My God I certainly hope not. The idea is to keep the kids out of the wheelchairs, and on the baseball field.
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Old Wed Aug 29, 2001, 05:43pm
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Re: what do the statistics show?

Quote:
Originally posted by Rog
Jim:
Curious, any chance you have the statistics from that report?
Hi Rog,

Because research firms make money from their statistical reports, it's hard to get the most up to date numbers without paying for them.

However, in 1996, The Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a report that studied injuries in children playing baseball.

The report cites 162,100 players being treated in hospital emergency rooms for baseball-related injuries in 1995. Of those, 75% were in children 10-14. Of children 10 and under, the most common injuries reported were to the head and neck area.

8% of the total injuries reported to children 10-14 were due to sliding, or 13,000 sliding injuries. 8,200 of those were caused on a slide into a base, and only 6,600 were related to base contact (preventable by break-away bases).

The numbers seem to be there to support prohibiting head-first slides in divisions where children around 10-years-old play. I guess I don't understand how other organizations can turn a blind eye toward that.
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Old Wed Aug 29, 2001, 06:45pm
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Don't misread me.

I am not attempting to downplay neck injuries or the potential for neck injuries. My oldest son suffered a severe neck injury in wrestling when he as a freshman.

He was paralized from the shoulders down for three days and it scared the hell out us.

His injury was so similar to those caused by spearing in football that he was included in an NFL case study of neck injuries and their relationship to spinal cavity size undertaken by a specialist in Philadelphia.

He shows no signs of his injury today and in fact wrestled two more seasons and played football for three season. We understand how fortunate we are.

GB
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Old Thu Aug 30, 2001, 12:06pm
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Head 1st Slides

Which Leads to me to this statement/question. Isn't a head first slide towards a base that you have not occupied illegal in Little League baseball?? I thought this was put in around 1998/1999. Maybe it was a local rule... I guess it isn't illegal because if it is was, the last run scored by Japan in the finals would have to been disallowed.
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Old Thu Aug 30, 2001, 12:16pm
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Re: Head 1st Slides

Quote:
Originally posted by DrC.
Which Leads to me to this statement/question. Isn't a head first slide towards a base that you have not occupied illegal in Little League baseball?? I thought this was put in around 1998/1999. Maybe it was a local rule... I guess it isn't illegal because if it is was, the last run scored by Japan in the finals would have to been disallowed.
Dr.C,
Yes, the head first slide is illegal in Little League.
However, in the instance of which you speak, I think the slide was initiated by the runners feet actually being propelled forward and to the right side, as opposed to the head and arms being propelled forward.
A great slide, I thought. Very athletic and legal.
mick
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