LL is getting like the Olympics

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Jim Porter
Originally posted by GarthB


Do we have to have documented reports of dozens of children in wheelchairs before even considering the prohibition of this slide? My God I certainly hope not. The idea is to keep the kids out of the wheelchairs, and on the baseball field.

Jim I agree, but then the rules have to be applied consistently. The end result of the slide in the LLWS was that the runner was head first with his hand extended to touch the base.

If you are worried about safety as your aforementioned statement suggests, then the runner in the Final play of the LLWS should have been called out.

IMO you can't have it both ways. Granted, the runner went into the slide with his feet first, but because he had to avoid F2, he twisted and eventually he was head first. The umpire could have called the runner out and I do not believe her decision would have got overturned, because when all was said and done the runner was head first.

In conclusion, that's the problem with head first slides. I would have ruled the same as PU, but one can make a case that the last run was via a head first slide. Also, why allow a head first slide backwards. It seems as though one picks and chooses the ramifications of the head first slide.

As with all things in life, one takes a risk when you play a sport. When B1 comes up to bat there is a chance that he could get hit in the wrong area and be seriously injured - do we tell F1 not to pitch inside?

Therefore, until statistics proove otherwise, put the head first slide back in the game at least for the 12 yr. old division.

Pete Booth

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by Jim Porter
Originally posted by GarthB


Do we have to have documented reports of dozens of children in wheelchairs before even considering the prohibition of this slide? My God I certainly hope not. The idea is to keep the kids out of the wheelchairs, and on the baseball field.

Jim I agree, but then the rules have to be applied consistently. The end result of the slide in the LLWS was that the runner was head first with his hand extended to touch the base.

If you are worried about safety as your aforementioned statement suggests, then the runner in the Final play of the LLWS should have been called out.

IMO you can't have it both ways. Granted, the runner went into the slide with his feet first, but because he had to avoid F2, he twisted and eventually he was head first. The umpire could have called the runner out and I do not believe her decision would have got overturned, because when all was said and done the runner was head first.

In conclusion, that's the problem with head first slides. I would have ruled the same as PU, but one can make a case that the last run was via a head first slide. Also, why allow a head first slide backwards. It seems as though one picks and chooses the ramifications of the head first slide.

As with all things in life, one takes a risk when you play a sport. When B1 comes up to bat there is a chance that he could get hit in the wrong area and be seriously injured - do we tell F1 not to pitch inside?

Therefore, until statistics proove otherwise, put the head first slide back in the game at least for the 12 yr. old division.

Pete Booth

Pete,

The 12-year-old division includes 10-year-olds. Even the 12-year-old tournament division includes 11-year-olds - that's awfully close to 10.

As far as the slide in that LLWS World Championship game, I really feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. I cannot believe how many intelligent Internet posters have tried to argue that it was a head-first slide.

Pete, a runner can legally touch the base with his hand. There is no prohibition against that.

Pete, a runner can slide legally in Little League and still touch the base with his hand - or even his head!

Why you equate the action of touching the base with the slide is beyond me. C'mon, now, you know what a head-first slide is. That Japanese runner was sliding feet first - away from home plate.

There is consistent enforcement when it comes to this rule, provided the umpire can recognize a head-first slide. Apparently, that's much tougher than I originally thought. I am absolutely dumbfounded by that. I always thought a head-first slide was easy to recognize.

So, even though you probably saw Pete Rose slide head-first dozens of times in your childhood, even though you now know the intent of the prohibition against head-first sliding, you still think that runner slid head-first???

As Papa C is fond of saying, "Amazing!"

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Jim Porter
Originally posted by PeteBooth
Originally posted by Jim Porter
Originally posted by GarthB



As far as the slide in that LLWS World Championship game, I really feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. I cannot believe how many intelligent Internet posters have tried to argue that it was a head-first slide.

Pete, a runner can legally touch the base with his hand. There is no prohibition against that.

Pete, a runner can slide legally in Little League and still touch the base with his hand - or even his head!

Why you equate the action of touching the base with the slide is beyond me. C'mon, now, you know what a head-first slide is. That Japanese runner was sliding feet first - away from home plate.

There is consistent enforcement when it comes to this rule, provided the umpire can recognize a head-first slide. Apparently, that's much tougher than I originally thought. I am absolutely dumbfounded by that. I always thought a head-first slide was easy to recognize.

So, even though you probably saw Pete Rose slide head-first dozens of times in your childhood, even though you now know the intent of the prohibition against head-first sliding, you still think that runner slid head-first???

As Papa C is fond of saying, "Amazing!"

Jim I believe I mentioned that I agreed with the call. I would not have ruled it a head first slide but my point is as follows:

Individuals argue about the safety issue and no matter how you cut the cake , The Japan runner ended up head first regardless if he started feet first or not.

I would venture to guess that if this play happened in your average everyday run of the mill LL game you would get a 50/50 split on the call or perhaps even higher.

I still say, simply put the head first slide back into the game. To my knowledge, there are no known facts that substantiate injuries resulting from them.

You say it's amazing well I think it's amazing that people do not want the head first slide but if's perfectly ok to use metal bats at such a short distance.

We can go on and on about safety. My main point was not the call at the plate but strictly the safety issue and if you do not want head first slides, what about the metal bats, the distance from home plate to the mound when a kid is throwing in the upper 60's from only 46ft. away.

Shall I go on

Pete Booth

Jim's right, it wasn't a head first slide or even close. It was a hook slide with a tag by his hand as he went by. Some people complain about no proabition on a return. 99.9% of the time it's a return from a few feet or in a pickle where the runner isn't running full out.
As far as Cal Ripken baseball it's the same as LL. 46 ft mound, 60 ft bases, no leading off. Frankly I'm not sure of an advantage of one system over the other even in the older kids.
PONY at the same level is 70 ft bases,48 ft mound, 225 ft fences, and lead-offs allowed. The option of leading off or not is in the 9/10(Mustangs.)
They have three options:
A) full lead-off
B) lead-off of 1st and 2nd only
C) no lead-off same as LL

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by PeteBooth
The Japan runner ended up head first regardless if he started feet first or not.

But, Pete, there's no rule against which part of the body ends up at the base. The prohibition is against a particular slide. I just can't believe that you don't get the difference and why. The intent is clear, and you just keep going back to what part of the body ended up at the base first. Who cares?!? It is the type of slide which is prohibited, and not what part of the body a runner touched a base with.

I would venture to guess that if this play happened in your average everyday run of the mill LL game you would get a 50/50 split on the call or perhaps even higher.

To believe your numbers would be to believe that 50% of Little League umpires have no idea what a head-first slide is. I think that is a gross exaggeration. I think most Little League umpires know what a head-first slide is.

I still say, simply put the head first slide back into the game. To my knowledge, there are no known facts that substantiate injuries resulting from them.

Well, the Academy of Pediatrics and The Consumer Product Safety Commission both disagree with you. But just like other youth league organizations, you feel it's better to keep "real" baseball on the field than it is to listen to agencies who have the experts and the data. Amazing!

You say it's amazing well I think it's amazing that people do not want the head first slide but if's perfectly ok to use metal bats at such a short distance.

If the American Academy of Pediatrics or the Consumer Product Safety Commission released a report giving their opinions that conclusive data exists that proves those bats to be a danger at that age level, then Little League would be the first organization to ban them. But the data shows otherwise, Pete. And Little League posted that data on their web site. Injuries decreased since the onslaught of high-tech bats in Little League Baseball.

You see, data is far more conclusive than someone's opinion. That's why we have research - to tell us exactly what is injuring players, and exactly what is not.

We can go on and on about safety. My main point was not the call at the plate but strictly the safety issue and if you do not want head first slides, what about the metal bats, the distance from home plate to the mound when a kid is throwing in the upper 60's from only 46ft. away.

Shall I go on

Pete Booth

No, no need to go on. I can see that you find your own opinion far more valuable than any expert opinions, research, or hard data from emergency rooms all over the country.

It's Pete Booth in this corner, and the American Academy of Pediatrics as well as the Consumer Product Safety Commission in that corner. I know who the odds-on favorite is in that fight.

It's going to take seeing a neck get broken before you and those other youth baseball organizations finally wake up. And for that 10-year-old who ends up in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, I hope you can explain to him that it's all just a part of "real" baseball.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by Jim Porter
Originally posted by PeteBooth

It's going to take seeing a neck get broken before you and those other youth baseball organizations finally wake up. And for that 10-year-old who ends up in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, I hope you can explain to him that it's all just a part of "real" baseball.

What about a kid who gets hit in the head or face area with a 65 - 70 mph fast ball from only 46 ft. / or F5 playing in for the bunt gets a ball hit down his throat.

How are you going to explain that to him. What it's in the rules?

Did you see the special on ESPN about the use of metal bats? There are certain collegiate schools that are going to wood because of the injuries sustained by certian pitchers.

Is the reason we do not worry about the aforementioned is becasue there are no statistics yet?

Whenever you play sports, there is a certain risk involved. Heck my kids play sports also. You have to teach them the proper techniques of sliding, avoid getting hit or if you are going to get hit how to avoid the "crucial" areas.

If you do not want risk stick to golf or something. Just because there are no statistics issued on something doesn't mean the result can't be fatal.

It's like an intersection in which everybody knows that a traffic light should be installed, however, nothing gets done until a fatality strikes.

ok how did we get to this from my original thread anyway -

Pete Booth

[Jim Porter]

Originally posted by PeteBooth

ok how did we get to this from my original thread anyway -

Pete Booth

I don't know. But, as always, it was fun to debate with you Pete.

[David B]

Pete,

Down south we play mostly Dixie Youth and Dizzy Dean; however, the same problems exist.

The season now plays from April to May. The tournaments supposedly start July 3rd and the teams are only supposed to be able to practice for two weeks before the tourneys that they play in.

However, you can tell since they end in May they have the entire month of June to practice and they do, many six days a week.

It's to the point of rediculous and the league official just ignore it because every other team is doing the same thing and they have to follow suit to be able to compete.


Our local league hosts the Dizzy Dean WS for the next few years and since the WS doesn't start until July 18th or so, they travel to tournaments every week from June until ...

I talked with one parent who said they had spent nearly $3K on travel, etc., just for their kid to be able to play All-
Stars.

And it's just for the kids ... (g)

Thanks
David