Whoa was I out of position...

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

BTW- The OP only mentioned a R2. Nothing was mentioned about a R1.

Okay. R2 only. "He's going," you hear. You glance over your shoulder, and sure enough, he's going. You start toward your angle. The next thing you know, R2 chickens out and retreats to 2nd. Your momentum is going toward 3rd. Here comes F2's throw to second. Now, instead of taking F2's throw over your shoulder, turning you into the perfect position, you are in position for a terrific angle for the non-existent play at 3rd base.

I repeat: I have NEVER had any problem getting a great angle, getting 4 or 5 good steps toward the midpoint of the 3rd baseline, and having a really good look at the play at 3rd, all without leaving C until the ball smacked the catcher's mitt. This is at the HS Varsity level, mind you. I'm sure that professional athletes are much faster, and if PBUC says to leave sooner, I would comply when working pro games.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Okay. R2 only. "He's going," you hear. You glance over your shoulder, and sure enough, he's going. You start toward your angle. The next thing you know, R2 chickens out and retreats to 2nd. Your momentum is going toward 3rd. Here comes F2's throw to second. Now, instead of taking F2's throw over your shoulder, turning you into the perfect position, you are in position for a terrific angle for the non-existent play at 3rd base.

I repeat: I have NEVER had any problem getting a great angle, getting 4 or 5 good steps toward the midpoint of the 3rd baseline, and having a really good look at the play at 3rd, all without leaving C until the ball smacked the catcher's mitt. This is at the HS Varsity level, mind you. I'm sure that professional athletes are much faster, and if PBUC says to leave sooner, I would comply when working pro games.

A serious question.

You have, in the past, talked about how, while you have never gone to pro school or attended an extended pro camp like one of Evans' Classics, you were, never-the-less trained by local "pro" umpires.

So, are you saying that in all the training by these pros, you have never heard of the proper PBUC and proschool mechanic for this situation? Do the local pros "dumb down" mechanics for the association? Or. perhaps your association has its own mechanics?

No insult intended, honestly, I'm just trying to understand how you were trained.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

A serious question.

You have, in the past, talked about how, while you have never gone to pro school or attended an extended pro camp like one of Evans' Classics, you were, never-the-less trained by local "pro" umpires.

So, are you saying that in all the training by these pros, you have never heard of the proper PBUC and proschool mechanic for this situation? Do the local pros "dumb down" mechanics for the association? Or. perhaps your association has its own mechanics?

No insult intended, honestly, I'm just trying to understand how you were trained.

I'll say it one more time: I've never, ever once, seen a base umpire start running on a steal before the ball was caught by the catcher.

I said I learned pro school mechanics from pro school graduates, some of which were minor league umpires. I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game. He had the bases. He had a steal of 3rd, and he did not leave C until the catcher caught the baseball.

The time frame you all are talking about is so miniscule to start with. You can't seriously think by leaving with the runner that you are getting that much of a bigger jump.

Now, you think they dumb down the mechanics for us? These were pro school grads, teaching 1986 or earlier pro school mechanics. Nobody ever once said to leave C position at the same time the runner does. The umpire isn't stealing the base, so why should he try to beat the runner. I can still get over for my angle before he gets anywhere close to 3rd.

[BigUmp56]

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

Tim,

The time of the pitch is NOT when he releases it.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

About 3 yards including lag time. Note I held my lip (ah fingers) .silent. from further comment.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I'll say it one more time: I've never, ever once, seen a base umpire start running on a steal before the ball was caught by the catcher.

I said I learned pro school mechanics from pro school graduates, some of which were minor league umpires. I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game. He had the bases. He had a steal of 3rd, and he did not leave C until the catcher caught the baseball.

The time frame you all are talking about is so miniscule to start with. You can't seriously think by leaving with the runner that you are getting that much of a bigger jump.

Now, you think they dumb down the mechanics for us? These were pro school grads, teaching 1986 or earlier pro school mechanics. Nobody ever once said to leave C position at the same time the runner does. The umpire isn't stealing the base, so why should he try to beat the runner. I can still get over for my angle before he gets anywhere close to 3rd.

You apparently misread my post. I didn't say I thought they dumbed down the mechanics, I asked if they did. And I asked only because I take you at your word as to their experience and I was curious why a pro wouldn't teach the way he was taught. That's all.

On to a basketball game.

[left coast]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game.

I did not realize that the double A umpires got vacation. Also, why did he wear his TL uniform and hat? Sounds like he was trying to big-league you.

[CollegeUmp06]

The original poster was not out of position by what he said. I was not there so I do not know definitely.

I went to the Wendelstedt school this year and was taught just as TC Ump was taught. You check over the right shoulder for the runner at 2nd and react accordingly. You must be in position before the play is made so tha t you can be stopped and set. If in the instance of the original poster the ball was hit as a dribbler then you will have to react without getting in the way. The key is angle and distance. You may have to sacrifice distance for angle. Just do your drop steps and pivots and you will be fine if you get proper angle.

If you are waiting until the catcher catches the ball to react you will not have the proper angle on the play. You will likely see the back side of the runner and will likely have no clue as to a close bang bang steal play at 3rd.

Before going to the school, I would move a step or so toward 3rd but nothing like I do now. Now I realize the proper way of doing it and do have a much better angle and approach.

I have been umpiring for a number of years, I have purchased numerous training aids and went to various schools, yet I have never heard of staying still until the catcher catches the ball. SDS said he would give up the check swing call for the steal play. Truly the check swing call is not your call to make unless the PU asks for help. You must first do your job. You have to make the safe/out calls.

If you need any help or anything just ask and I will do anything I can. Hey even the pros make mistakes. We are human after all.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by left coast

I did not realize that the double A umpires got vacation. Also, why did he wear his TL uniform and hat? Sounds like he was trying to big-league you.

What I meant was that he was on vacation after his season was over. From what I remember, as this was over 12 years ago, he did not have any association uniform shirts available, so he wore his pro uniform. After all, he had been a minor league umpire for quite some time to be in the Texas League, which is AA. Why would you expect him to still have his old shirts?

He got assigned the game because the assignor wanted two good officials on it since it was a championship game of a 17-18 yr. old tournament, and it was the time of year that many umpires (the ones who are too "good" to work non-NFHS games) are no longer working.

By the way, this umpire now runs an umpire training program in the Southern California area. If I named him, you probably would regognize the name.

[TussAgee11]

For clarificiation, what I meant by my title of the thread was that I was really far away and had an unusual angle for the banger at first. It sounds as though, according to you guys, that there was little I could do other than what I did to get myself close to where I needed to be to make the call at 1st.

Thanks ya'll.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

Are you still moving when the ball gets there? I know for a fact that it is hard to get that far and be set to make a call.

No. See above post.

[TCump84]

I would like to say, for the Benefit of the board, I attended umpire school this year, and also was sent to PBUC. We were taught to move towards third when the runner takes off by checking over our right shoulder, gain the most distance and best angle possible, and then if the ball is put in play react accordingly to the batted ball. Hope this helps.

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by TCump84

I would like to say, for the Benefit of the board, I attended umpire school this year, and also was sent to PBUC. We were taught to move towards third when the runner takes off by checking over our right shoulder, gain the most distance and best angle possible, and then if the ball is put in play react accordingly to the batted ball. Hope this helps.

Thank you, TC

[bobbybanaduck]

tc, which school did you go to and what league were you in this year? adding to his school and pbuc post, the evaluator's will mark a guy down for not moving before the ball reaches the catcher. that point should clear up the "begin his reaction / moving to position" argument.