Whoa was I out of position...

[Tim C]

SDS:

Don't take a simple statement and run with it like a smelly mackeral.

"Moving to postion" is far different that "takling off running."

I follow the exact process as CoachJM has documented.

Sometimes it is hard for some of us to say "I was wrong" . . . It is clear to me that the quotation by CoachJM means to physically MOVE not just think it through.

Regards,

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Tim C

SDS:

Don't take a simple statement and run with it like a smelly mackeral.

"Moving to postion" is far different that "takling off running."

"Begin his reaction" is far different than "Moving to position."

The PBUC manual makes no mention of "moving to position" prior to the ball being caught. It says to "begin your reaction."

Well, no sh*t. We all begin our reaction, otherwise we would, as SoCal said, be looking up the rear-end of the runner.

I begin my reaction when I know the runner is going. I get ready to pounce into action, weight on the balls of my feet, ready to push off with my left foot at a perfect angle. I know the exact spot I'm going to run to. By instinct, I know when to turn into the play and set. Voila, I'm right there.

But take off willy-nilly before the ball reaches the catcher? Never.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

But take off willy-nilly before the ball reaches the catcher? Never.

Who said "take off willy-nilly?"

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

It's important enough that the runner uses it -- and most runners are a hell of a lot faster than I am (understanding that the runner must move farther than the umpire).

I seem to recall that the time between F1 committing and Fx catching the ball from F2 is something like 2 seconds. If that's true, then I don't think I can afford to "give up" the 30% - 50% that happens before F2 catches the ball.

As Tee implied (or at least as I inferred from his post), I think most of us (on both "sides" of the issue) are really saying the same thing. It's wrong to wait until F2 catches the ball. It's also wrong to run willy-nilly toward the position as soon as R2 breaks. Be moving toward the position (and the "moving" can include body motion), but don't commit until there's goiing to be a play.

[umpire99]

Why would you ever be out of position. If you know the game, you should know when a steal is coming. Then you can "cheat" to be int eh correct position at all times.

[SAump]

Does anyone set up in C other than on the line from the edge of the mound to the plate? In other words, does anyone cheat toward 3B because the runner at 2B may have a very large lead, often directly behind the BU?

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SAump

Does anyone set up in C other than on the line from the edge of the mound to the plate? In other words, does anyone cheat toward 3B because the runner at 2B may have a very large lead, often directly behind the BU?

There is no one spot for the C position. Game situations come into play when setting up on the grass. I've set up deep, shallow, left a little, right a little....

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

BTW- The OP only mentioned a R2. Nothing was mentioned about a R1.

Okay. R2 only. "He's going," you hear. You glance over your shoulder, and sure enough, he's going. You start toward your angle. The next thing you know, R2 chickens out and retreats to 2nd. Your momentum is going toward 3rd. Here comes F2's throw to second. Now, instead of taking F2's throw over your shoulder, turning you into the perfect position, you are in position for a terrific angle for the non-existent play at 3rd base.

I repeat: I have NEVER had any problem getting a great angle, getting 4 or 5 good steps toward the midpoint of the 3rd baseline, and having a really good look at the play at 3rd, all without leaving C until the ball smacked the catcher's mitt. This is at the HS Varsity level, mind you. I'm sure that professional athletes are much faster, and if PBUC says to leave sooner, I would comply when working pro games.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Okay. R2 only. "He's going," you hear. You glance over your shoulder, and sure enough, he's going. You start toward your angle. The next thing you know, R2 chickens out and retreats to 2nd. Your momentum is going toward 3rd. Here comes F2's throw to second. Now, instead of taking F2's throw over your shoulder, turning you into the perfect position, you are in position for a terrific angle for the non-existent play at 3rd base.

I repeat: I have NEVER had any problem getting a great angle, getting 4 or 5 good steps toward the midpoint of the 3rd baseline, and having a really good look at the play at 3rd, all without leaving C until the ball smacked the catcher's mitt. This is at the HS Varsity level, mind you. I'm sure that professional athletes are much faster, and if PBUC says to leave sooner, I would comply when working pro games.

A serious question.

You have, in the past, talked about how, while you have never gone to pro school or attended an extended pro camp like one of Evans' Classics, you were, never-the-less trained by local "pro" umpires.

So, are you saying that in all the training by these pros, you have never heard of the proper PBUC and proschool mechanic for this situation? Do the local pros "dumb down" mechanics for the association? Or. perhaps your association has its own mechanics?

No insult intended, honestly, I'm just trying to understand how you were trained.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

A serious question.

You have, in the past, talked about how, while you have never gone to pro school or attended an extended pro camp like one of Evans' Classics, you were, never-the-less trained by local "pro" umpires.

So, are you saying that in all the training by these pros, you have never heard of the proper PBUC and proschool mechanic for this situation? Do the local pros "dumb down" mechanics for the association? Or. perhaps your association has its own mechanics?

No insult intended, honestly, I'm just trying to understand how you were trained.

I'll say it one more time: I've never, ever once, seen a base umpire start running on a steal before the ball was caught by the catcher.

I said I learned pro school mechanics from pro school graduates, some of which were minor league umpires. I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game. He had the bases. He had a steal of 3rd, and he did not leave C until the catcher caught the baseball.

The time frame you all are talking about is so miniscule to start with. You can't seriously think by leaving with the runner that you are getting that much of a bigger jump.

Now, you think they dumb down the mechanics for us? These were pro school grads, teaching 1986 or earlier pro school mechanics. Nobody ever once said to leave C position at the same time the runner does. The umpire isn't stealing the base, so why should he try to beat the runner. I can still get over for my angle before he gets anywhere close to 3rd.

[BigUmp56]

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

Tim,

The time of the pitch is NOT when he releases it.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

About 3 yards including lag time. Note I held my lip (ah fingers) .silent. from further comment.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I'll say it one more time: I've never, ever once, seen a base umpire start running on a steal before the ball was caught by the catcher.

I said I learned pro school mechanics from pro school graduates, some of which were minor league umpires. I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game. He had the bases. He had a steal of 3rd, and he did not leave C until the catcher caught the baseball.

The time frame you all are talking about is so miniscule to start with. You can't seriously think by leaving with the runner that you are getting that much of a bigger jump.

Now, you think they dumb down the mechanics for us? These were pro school grads, teaching 1986 or earlier pro school mechanics. Nobody ever once said to leave C position at the same time the runner does. The umpire isn't stealing the base, so why should he try to beat the runner. I can still get over for my angle before he gets anywhere close to 3rd.

You apparently misread my post. I didn't say I thought they dumbed down the mechanics, I asked if they did. And I asked only because I take you at your word as to their experience and I was curious why a pro wouldn't teach the way he was taught. That's all.

On to a basketball game.

[left coast]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game.

I did not realize that the double A umpires got vacation. Also, why did he wear his TL uniform and hat? Sounds like he was trying to big-league you.

[CollegeUmp06]

The original poster was not out of position by what he said. I was not there so I do not know definitely.

I went to the Wendelstedt school this year and was taught just as TC Ump was taught. You check over the right shoulder for the runner at 2nd and react accordingly. You must be in position before the play is made so tha t you can be stopped and set. If in the instance of the original poster the ball was hit as a dribbler then you will have to react without getting in the way. The key is angle and distance. You may have to sacrifice distance for angle. Just do your drop steps and pivots and you will be fine if you get proper angle.

If you are waiting until the catcher catches the ball to react you will not have the proper angle on the play. You will likely see the back side of the runner and will likely have no clue as to a close bang bang steal play at 3rd.

Before going to the school, I would move a step or so toward 3rd but nothing like I do now. Now I realize the proper way of doing it and do have a much better angle and approach.

I have been umpiring for a number of years, I have purchased numerous training aids and went to various schools, yet I have never heard of staying still until the catcher catches the ball. SDS said he would give up the check swing call for the steal play. Truly the check swing call is not your call to make unless the PU asks for help. You must first do your job. You have to make the safe/out calls.

If you need any help or anything just ask and I will do anything I can. Hey even the pros make mistakes. We are human after all.