balk

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Because the first four words in the penalty read THE BALL IS DEAD.

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.


Tim.

[PWL]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.


Tim.

FYI. It's like a penalty flag in football. You just pick it up and stick it in you back pocket. There is nothing wrong with calling "TIME" the instant the catcher gloves the ball in this situation. Go back and read the post by bossman 72 on page 1. Perhaps the pitch was a check swing.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

FYI. It's like a penalty flag in football. You just pick it up and stick it in you back pocket. There is nothing wrong with calling "TIME" the instant the catcher gloves the ball in this situation. Go back and read the post by bossman 72 on page 1. Perhaps the pitch was a check swing.

If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.

(5)If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Notice the exception. You do not call time on ball four when runners are forced due to the batter becoming a runner. To do so would be playing the 10th man on defense should a runner attempt to advance beyond the base to which he was forced. Do you call time every time the catcher wants to throw the ball back to the pitcher? I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely pointing our you're wrong in your interpretation.



Tim.

[PWL]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations covered in item (5) below.

(5)If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call "Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Notice the exception. You do not call time on ball four when runners are forced due to the batter becoming a runner. To do so would be playing the 10th man on defense should a runner attempt to advance beyond the base to which he was forced. Do you call time every time the catcher wants to throw the ball back to the pitcher? I'm not arguing with you. I'm merely pointing our you're wrong in your interpretation, again.


Tim.

If you will read it says call "Time". It doesn't say not call "Time" in certain situations. Isn't that like your interpretation of the jump turn, "But it doesn't say that in so many words". It simply says disregard the balk if all runners advance due to the base on balls. If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate. So would you not call "Time" in that situation? Would you be the 10th man? Again you don't get it. You are not depriving the defense of making a play, since they have committed an infraction.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

If you will read it says call "Time". It doesn't say not call "Time" in certain situations. Isn't that like your interpretation of the jump turn, "But it doesn't say that in so many words". It simply says disregard the balk if all runners advance due to the base on balls. If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate. So would you not call "Time" in that situation? Would you be the 10th man? Again you don't get it. You are not depriving the defense of making a play, since they have committed an infraction. Perhaps you should go back to slow pitch softball where you don't have to concern your self with such technicalities.

No, it doesn't say not to call time. It also doesn't say to call time in many other situations. That doesn't mean that it's your perogative to call time at will for no justifiable reason. This discussion has centered around your assertion after Steve said the ball remains live with first base occupied, that the ball should in fact become dead on ball four when the pitcher balks. We weren't discussing runners on first and third to my knowledge, only a runner(s) who would be forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner on ball four. Therefore, your first and third analogy is seriously flawed as it relates to this discussion. When the interpretation says the play proceeds, it means just that. The ball must remain live allowing all play to continue until there is just cause for it to become dead.

Tim.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by PWL

If you will read it says call "Time". It doesn't say not call "Time" in certain situations. Isn't that like your interpretation of the jump turn, "But it doesn't say that in so many words". It simply says disregard the balk if all runners advance due to the base on balls. If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate. So would you not call "Time" in that situation? Would you be the 10th man? Again you don't get it. You are not depriving the defense of making a play, since they have committed an infraction.

FWIW, I agree with Tim's reading of this rule. That is, if everyone (BR and all Rs) advances as a result of the play, keep the ball live. If anyone doesn't advance, then kill the ball.

If you want to argue the rule, please do so without getting personal. I removed a couple of "shots" from recent posts -- I hope I won't have to do so again. (And that paragraph is not directed only at PWL.)

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

If there were runners on first and third and the pitch was ball four, the pitch would not count. You would score runner from third and runner from first would move to second. Batter would stay at the plate.

My example said a runner on first. At no time did I say "first and third." I was only explaining that you don't kill the ball on ball four if all runners advance 1 base. In these situations on ball four, the ball remains alive: R1, R1 and R2, R1, R2, and R3. In any other case, the ball is dead as it states in the rules (8.05 Penalty).

Let's review:

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.

Now, in conclusion:

1) the word "unless" means that everything written before it is not applicable in the exceptions that will follow.

2) a "base on balls" and "all other runners advance at least one base" are the items which are the exceptions that make everything prior to the word "unless" not applicable in this particualr situation.

3) because these exceptions were met, the "play proceeds without reference to the balk. This means that the play proceeds, which would be impossible to occur unless the ball remains alive, as is stated right there in 8.05 Penalty, by the very definition of the word "unless." The ball is dead unless.

I hope this has cleared it up for you.

[PWL]

FWIW, the ruling also includes HBP. Are going to keep the ball alive then. The play shall proceed unless. That is the problem I have with the ruling. If a ball is put in play, I can certainly agree with what it says. I just feel you are giving the defense the opportunity to make a play when they have erred. If I don't read it the way you read it, sorry.

[SanDiegoSteve]

PW,

On a HBP, the ball is always dead. Ball four usually has the ball alive when it's called. I'm not talking down to you, I'm telling you the proper way to rule on the play. Bob told you, Tim told you, now I'm telling you. But you still want to argue about it. The play proceeds. If it's a HBP, the play proceeds as normal, which is that the ball is dead. If it is a base on balls, the play proceeds as normal, which is the ball is alive.

What if the catcher saw the runner round 2nd base hard, threw there, but threw the ball away into center, and thus allowed a run to score on the error. If you kill the ball when the catcher catches it, you have now deprived the offense to take advantage of the defense's mistake.

It isn't that you don't read it the way I do, it's that whenever advice is given to you, instead of just saying, "thank you for explaining it to me," you always take offense and think somebody is out to get you. I explained the reason that the ball is not dead as clearly as I can. You continue to argue after being told by several people that you are wrong.

You aren't just wrong a little bit, like because of the way something is worded doesn't match. You are wrong because you have a wrong concept of the proper ruling.

I sure hope my post doesn't need editing just for pointing out that you are wrong in this case. There is nothing personal meant in any way by my pointing this out.

[BigUmp56]

The exception does not include a HBP because obviously a HBP is an immediate dead ball. It's right there in black and white on your computer screen. I don't understand how you can possibly be reading it any other way. I'm not sure how you can be giving the defense the opportunity to make a play. It's an award, and a base on balls in OBR is a live ball award. I would think that what you're doing by killing the ball is depriving the offense an opportunity to attempt to advance.



Tim.