balk

[UmpJM]

ggk,

It depends on the rule code.

Under FED rules, the ball is immediately dead on a balk - so nothing after the balk "happened".

Under OBR rules, in your initial sitch (balk, F2 overthrows 2B in his attempt on the stealing R1, r1 ends up safe at 3B) the ball NEVER became dead as a result of the balk. Since the only runner advanced one base safely on the continuous action of the play immediately following the balk, the balk is disregarded - as if it never happened.

I believe that the issue that some posters on this forum have with the concept of "delayed dead" under OBR is that, in some cases, the ball NEVER becomes dead as a result of the balk. What is delayed is the umpire's decision as to whether or not to call "TIME!" because of the balk. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

NCAA is like OBR rather than FED. In your NCAA sitch, the ball does NOT become dead when the F3 catches the pick-off throw, or at any other time during the play as described. Had the R1 been put out returning to 1B or had the F3 made a good enough throw to retire the R1 as he attempted to advance to 2B, THEN you would call "TIME!" and award the R1 2B on the balk.

You leave the ball "live" until you see if the R1 advances safely to 2B. Once he does, you disregard the balk. If the pitcher "aborts" as a result of the "That's a BALK!" call, you call "TIME!" and enforce the balk.

JM

[ggk]

thanks. do you have a rule citation for ncaa and obr? the only thing i could find in obr dealt with a wild pitch or throw.......thx

[umpduck11]

Originally Posted by ggk

thanks. do you have a rule citation for ncaa and obr? the only thing i could find in obr dealt with a wild pitch or throw.......thx

OBR 8.05 Penalty and approved ruling.

[ggk]

my rule citation post was directed at coachjm.

i tend to argee with ctblu40. unless this situation is addressed in a case play, it appears as if we must enforce the balk and call the ball dead once F2 catches the ball as the criteria to allow this play to continue any further has not been met.

[UmpJM]

ctblu40,

...
Since the batter did not reach first base, and the pitcher did not throw wild, the balk is enforced.
...

While I would certainly agree that a literal reading of the OBR text could lead a reasonable person to this conclusion, I do NOT believe this would be a proper enforcement on the sitch described.

First, in regard to the batter. If the batter does not, by rule, become a runner on the action immediately following the balk (which would require a pitch rather than a pick-off), the bit him about him reaching 1B is not relevant.

Second, in regard to the runner. I believe that the essential element in regard to proper balk enforcement is NOT the "quality" of the pitcher's throw - whether a pitch delivered to the batter or a pick-off throw. I believe the essential element is whether all runners advance at least one base. If they do, the balk is disregarded. If they don't, the umpire calls "TIME!" and the balk is enforced.

Now, I checked the MLBUM and it contains a statement in the "Balk Enforcement" section that says:

(4) If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call "Time" the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.

Obviously, this supports your assertion in regard to the proper OBR ruling. However, being the pig-headed coach that I am, I STILL think I might be right in regard to the proper ruling on the OP.

Because, the same section of the MLBUM also contains the statement:

The umpire shall not call "Time" until play stops following the balk.

In the context of the situation described, these two statements contradict one another. Here's what I think it means.

If the "That's a Balk!" call does not stop the pitcher from throwing/pitching, then the play is allowed to proceed. The play is not killed until:

1. Any runner (including the batter-runner if there is one) is put out before reaching his first advance base.

2. The ball enters dead ball territory.

3. Some other action causes the ball to become dead by rule (Batter is HBP, runner being played upon is obstructed, Offensive interference, etc.)

I am not positive this is correct, but I think it is. I think this, because I don't think it is intended that the defense should benefit from the balk. If the umpire were to retroactively kill the play at the point in time the F3 caught the ball, when the R2 had already committed to 2B (rather than trying to return to 1B) and the F3 subsequently made a wild throw in trying to retire the R1, who made it to 3B, the defense would end up benefitting from the balk call. I don't think that's the intent of the rule.

I'll dig into it a little more and get back tomorrow, by which time I'm sure others will have chimed in.

JM

[Dave Reed]

CoachJM,
J/R disagrees with you. They outline 3 scenarios for balk enforcement.
A) balk followed by a pause: enforce the balk
B) balk followed by a pitch: Enforce the balk unless the batter acquires first, and all other runners reach their advance base. The exception: if the pitch is wild, and all runners advance, but the batter does not become a runner, then "all related action is allowed, except the pitch, which does not count." To me, the exception emphasizes that unless the pitch is wild, the batter must become a runner and attain 1st base.
C) balk followed by a throw: "related action is allowed until a fielder is able to glove and gain possesion of such a throw (if the throw is not wild). The defense is not allowed a tag try of, or a subsequent throw against (including a rundown) a runner before his advance base. If every runner acquires his advance base uncontested, the balk is disregarded".

So the quality of the pitch and throw do matter. And with the exception of a wild pitch, the batter must become a runner and acquire first or the balk is enforced. By the way, their examples shows that a uncaught third strike would trigger the exception, even if the batter is out because 1st is occupied. In that case, if the runners advance, then the batter resumes his at bat with two strikes.

All in all, it seems to me that the offense is pretty well protected.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by Dave Reed

CoachJM,
J/R disagrees with you. They outline 3 scenarios for balk enforcement.
A) balk followed by a pause: enforce the balk
B) balk followed by a pitch: Enforce the balk unless the batter acquires first, and all other runners reach their advance base. The exception: if the pitch is wild, and all runners advance, but the batter does not become a runner, then "all related action is allowed, except the pitch, which does not count." To me, the exception emphasizes that unless the pitch is wild, the batter must become a runner and attain 1st base.
C) balk followed by a throw: "related action is allowed until a fielder is able to glove and gain possesion of such a throw (if the throw is not wild). The defense is not allowed a tag try of, or a subsequent throw against (including a rundown) a runner before his advance base. If every runner acquires his advance base uncontested, the balk is disregarded".

So the quality of the pitch and throw do matter. And with the exception of a wild pitch, the batter must become a runner and acquire first or the balk is enforced. By the way, their examples shows that a uncaught third strike would trigger the exception, even if the batter is out because 1st is occupied. In that case, if the runners advance, then the batter resumes his at bat with two strikes.

All in all, it seems to me that the offense is pretty well protected.

I thought the pitch doesn't count, so how can there be an uncaught third strike? The batter swings and misses; did I have a balk and a strike? I thought I should disregard the swing and enforce the balk.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by SAump

I thought the pitch doesn't count, so how can there be an uncaught third strike? The batter swings and misses; did I have a balk and a strike? I thought I should disregard the swing and enforce the balk.

SAump-

In this situation, you disregard the balk with respect to the runners, but it is enforced with respect to the batter (ie the batter remains at bat with 2 strikes).

Dave quoted J/R as saying:

The exception: if the pitch is wild, and all runners advance, but the batter does not become a runner, then "all related action is allowed, except the pitch, which does not count."

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

I am not positive this is correct, but I think it is. I think this, because I don't think it is intended that the defense should benefit from the balk. If the umpire were to retroactively kill the play at the point in time the F3 caught the ball, when the R2 had already committed to 2B (rather than trying to return to 1B) and the F3 subsequently made a wild throw in trying to retire the R1, who made it to 3B, the defense would end up benefitting from the balk call. I don't think that's the intent of the rule.

I agree that the defense should not benefit from a balk call, and I contend that if the umpire is using proper mechanics, they won't.

If the umpire calls a balk that is followed by a subsequent throw, proper mechanics would prevent the situation you describe. For instance, in your situation, the umpire points at the pitcher and yells, "That's a balk!" The pitcher then throws to F3 on the bag. As soon as F3 gloves the ball, the umpire should be screaming with all his might, "TIME!" and then pointing to R1, "YOU, SECOND BASE!" All the while, the umpire should be moving toward the middle of the infield.

With good mechanics, and a loud voice, the umpire should be able to stop all play.

[bob jenkins]

I cast my vote for "the ball is dead and the balk is enforced when F2 catches the pitch" under both OBR and NCAA rules.

[bossman72]

I'll post the section from the MLB Umpire's Manual on when to call time on a balk for reference:


7.9 CALLING "TIME" AFTER A BALK
The penalty for balk allows the play to proceed without reference to the balk if the batter and all
runners advance one base on the pitch following the balk (i.e., the actual pitch and/or action
caused by the batter hitting the ball). The umpire shall not call "Time" until play stops following
the balk. The question therefore arises as to when the umpire is to call "Time" to kill the ball
after calling a balk. The following cases should help explain when play is considered "stopped"
and a what moment the umpire should call "Time" following the call of balk:
(1) If the pitcher balks and does not throw the ball, call "That's a balk; Time!" and enforce the
balk.
(2) If the balk is followed by a batted ball, leave the ball in play until it is apparent that the batter
and all runners will not advance one base. At that moment, call "Time" and enforce the balk.
If, however, the batter reaches first base and all runners advance at least one base on play
following the balk, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
EXAMPLES:
(a) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a fly ball that is caught, call "Time" the
moment the fly ball is caught. Then enforce the balk.
(b) If a batted ball follows the balk and results in a ground-out on a previous runner at the
base to which he would be entitled because of the balk, call "Time" the moment the out is
made. Then enforce the balk.
(3) If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call "Time" the moment the
catcher catches the ball. Then enforce the balk. (Note exception in ball four situations
covered in item (5) below.)
(4) If the balk is followed by a pick-off throw to a base that is caught by a fielder, call "Time"
the moment the fielder catches the ball. Then enforce the balk.
(5) If the balk is followed by ball four delivered to the batter and is caught by the catcher, call
"Time" and enforce the balk unless all runners advance one base because of ball four. In that
situation, play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(6) If the balk is followed by a pitch that strikes the batter, call "Time" the moment the pitch
strikes the batter. Then enforce the balk unless the hit batter forces all other runners to
advance one base, in which case play proceeds without reference to the balk.
(7) If the balk is followed by a wild throw to a base, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball
Rule 8.05 provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his
own risk. In that situation the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call
"Time" until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and a fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
(8) If the balk is followed by a wild pitch, the Approved Ruling of Official Baseball Rule 8.05
provides that the runner may advance beyond the base to which he is entitled at his own risk.
In that situation, the umpire shall call the balk in the usual manner but shall not call "Time"
until all play has ceased (runners have stopped trying to advance and an fielder is in
possession of the ball in the infield).
Note that even if the runner advances to or beyond the base to which he is entitled because of
a wild pitch following a balk, the balk is still "acknowledged." That is, the pitch is nullified
and the batter will resume the at-bat with the count that existed when the balk occurred
unless:
(a) The wild pitch was ball four on which all runners advanced one base; or
(b) The wild pitch was strike three on which the batter and all other runners advanced one
base.
In both situations (a) and (b) above, play proceeds without reference to the balk, because all
runners (including the batter-runner) advanced one base on the pitch following the balk.

[ctblu40]

[QUOTE=CoachJM]

Under OBR rules, in your initial sitch (balk, F2 overthrows 2B in his attempt on the stealing R1, r1 ends up safe at 3B) the ball NEVER became dead as a result of the balk. Since the only runner advanced one base safely on the continuous action of the play immediately following the balk, the balk is disregarded - as if it never happened.
[\QUOTE]

Coach,

I disagree with you on the proper way to enforce the balk penalty in both OBR and NCAA.

First in OBR, in order for the balk to be nullified, both the runner and batter need to advance 1 base. Once F2 catches the pitch, it's obvious that the batter will not advance. At that point, the umpire should call "Time" and enforce the balk.

NCAA is like OBR rather than FED. In your NCAA sitch, the ball does NOT become dead when the F3 catches the pick-off throw, or at any other time during the play as described.

Under NCAA rules, as soon as F3 holds the ball in the infield the umpire should call "Time" and enforce the balk.

The rule references for both are in my previous reply above.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

ggk,


Under OBR rules, in your initial sitch (balk, F2 overthrows 2B in his attempt on the stealing R1, r1 ends up safe at 3B) the ball NEVER became dead as a result of the balk. Since the only runner advanced one base safely on the continuous action of the play immediately following the balk, the balk is disregarded - as if it never happened.

Sorry, Coach. Time is called and the balk enforced when the catcher catches the ball.

Edited to add: Oops...I didn't read page 2 before posting to your comment. I hadn't yet seen that several folks had already corrected you.