Coach slaps Player...

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by GarthB

This has nothing to do with what the kid may have said or have done. It has nothing to do with our judgment as to whether or not the kid "deserved it." An adult slapping the face of a 12 year old is violent behavior. If it is committed between participants of a game and witnessed by a sports official within the confines of the field, including the dugout, it needs to be addressed.

Few things are this cut and dried. This is.

Garth

IMO you're getting too hung up on this. Your job as an official is to enforce the rules of the game. No more, no less. Was the reaction of the coach inappropriate? Yes. But, I would bet that 95% of adults supervising kids in such a higly emotional setting as the World Series would react much the same way.

If I'm working a game and a coach kicks the $#!t out of a kid on the mound, he's done and I'm reporting the incident to the authorities. But a little slap because the kid is spreading F-bombs on national TV? Please...

BTW- Steve,

I'm a younger generation parent of 3 kids. I subscribe to the 'time out' method to a degree. What I mean is when I tell my 12 year old son to stop teasing his younger brother, if he doesn't he gets a time out. But if he is being disrespectful to an adult... let's just say that I've been told that my kids are very respectful...

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Garth

IMO you're getting too hung up on this. Your job as an official is to enforce the rules of the game. No more, no less. Was the reaction of the coach inappropriate? Yes. But, I would bet that 95% of adults supervising kids in such a higly emotional setting as the World Series would react much the same way.

If I'm working a game and a coach kicks the $#!t out of a kid on the mound, he's done and I'm reporting the incident to the authorities. But a little slap because the kid is spreading F-bombs on national TV? Please...

BTW- Steve,

I'm a younger generation parent of 3 kids. I subscribe to the 'time out' method to a degree. What I mean is when I tell my 12 year old son to stop teasing his younger brother, if he doesn't he gets a time out. But if he is being disrespectful to an adult... let's just say that I've been told that my kids are very respectful...

And I believe that others are trying way too hard to excuse the basic act: a grown man slapping a 12 year old kid in the face.

There was no excuse for that violent behavior. The kid didn't "make him do it". He is the grown up, supposedly in charge of his actions and he decided upon an act of violence. This is reprehensible behavior and has no place at 12 year old level baseball game.

Do I have a bias? Of course. I am biased against violence towards children and I am biased against adults who cannot control themselves.

[ctblu40]

You keep repeating violent behavior... violent behavior.
I guess I disagree that this classifies as violent behavior. The coach did not harm the kid... just put him in his place, and rightly so.

Would you have been okay with the coach making the kid wear a dunce cap and sit in the corner of the dugout with his thumb in his mouth? It wouldn't be violent...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

And I believe that others are trying way too hard to excuse the basic act: a grown man slapping a 12 year old kid in the face.

Once again, you see this as a problem, I see this as discipline. This was one slap, not a beating where the kid had to have stitches or a hospital stay.

Originally Posted by GarthB

There was no excuse for that violent behavior. The kid didn't "make him do it". He is the grown up, supposedly in charge of his actions and he decided upon an act of violence. This is reprehensible behavior and has no place at 12 year old level baseball game.

Many of us had to deal with the same things as a kid and we came out alright.

Originally Posted by GarthB

Do I have a bias? Of course. I am biased against violence towards children and I am biased against adults who cannot control themselves.

You call it violence, I call it discipline. Now I always find it funny that on one hand violence is bad, but the same people seem to advocate violence to handle other problems. So either all violence is all bad or there should be situation to situation consideration.

Peace

[GarthB]

Gentlemen:

I deal with discipline issues with children every day. My second period class last year was known school wide as "the class from hell." I have served in the miliatary and was a police officer. I have seen my share of violence committed by adults on children. In my short LE career, I arrested more than a dozen adults for child abuse. I studied child abuse. I learned how it starts...with an adult unable to control his anger who strikes a child and who finds a way to excuse it, usually blaming the child and then getting others, inclduing witnesses to agree with him. Wife abuse follows a similar pattern.

Dispense of it as you will. "It wasn't that hard", "He didn't mean it", "The kid had it coming". I will repeat from an earlier post. There is no excuse for a grown man to slap a 12 year old in the face. None. Nada. Zip. This is not "discipline", this is an uncontrolled angry reaction. What the kid did has no bearing. Whether or not it left a mark has no bearing. This is a grown man unable to control his anger slapping a 12 year old kid in the face, and yes, that IS violvent behavior. That's why I say that. Grown-up are supposed to control their anger. That's part of being grown-up.

I know this, all a 12 year old really learns from being slapped in the face is that it is acceptable for grown adults to lose control and strike children. There are posts in this thread that bear that out. Those condoing this action are the ones saying "I had my face slapped as a kid and I turned out okay". (The hole in that argument is as obvious and huge as the Grand Canyon.) So we see first hand how violence visited on children is often carried on by those children.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

Originally Posted by GarthB

And I believe that others are trying way too hard to excuse the basic act: a grown man slapping a 12 year old kid in the face.

There was no excuse for that violent behavior. The kid didn't "make him do it". He is the grown up, supposedly in charge of his actions and he decided upon an act of violence. This is reprehensible behavior and has no place at 12 year old level baseball game.

Do I have a bias? Of course. I am biased against violence towards children and I am biased against adults who cannot control themselves.

Decaf is probably in order here...you've taken the basic premise of this thread and manipulated it to serve your view. The thread asked if we would eject the coach for slapping a kid in the dugout. That is cut and dry. No, most seasoned umpires understand where their limits extend to. In the actual case - a LL game with veteran officials, TV crews and a host of LL admins - no action was taken against the individual.

While the adult's behavior was reprehensible, had an umpire ejected the coach for this action, this board would be alive with laughter. Ejecting this coach would be a mistake - serving as a witness in a criminal complaint would not. I would safely guess that most of us have had a parent slap/spank/hit us. It never was a good experience, but most of us would have been wards of the state by today's standards.

A coach in the Chicago area actually punched one of his players a few years ago. He was not ejected, but relieved of his position after over twenty years at the helm. Both authority figures acted appropriately.

We can disagree all you want about what we would do away from the field, but that is a horrible comparison. I wouldn't tolerate some guy calling me a M-F in a grocery store but I listen to fans do it all of the time when I'm umpiring. If an official is touched by a coach or player it leads to an ejection. Off the field it could lead to an arrest for assault or battery. Let's stick to the topic and on-field responsibilities.

Another member asked if the coach had slapped the kid on the mound would it be any different? If the kid had swore that loud, the coach probably wouldn't have had to come out to accost him. The kid would have been on his way. For what it's worth, I have seen plenty of parent-coaches who grab, pull and mistreat their players over the years - typically it's Daddy manhandling Junior. Just another reason why many of us hate small ball.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Another member asked if the coach had slapped the kid on the mound would it be any different?

Yes, the kid would then field a comebacker to him and instead of throwing the batter out at 1B, he would hold onto the ball until the batter runner rounded all the bases and scored the winning run, losing the league championship for the Yankees and winning it for the improbable Bad News Bears.

All life's riddles are answered in the movies.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Yes, the kid would then field a comebacker to him and instead of throwing the batter out at 1B, he would hold onto the ball until the batter runner rounded all the bases and scored the winning run, losing the league championship for the Yankees and winning it for the improbable Bad News Bears.

All life's riddles are answered in the movies.

The Bears lost when Kelly Leak got thrown out at the plate in the sixth inning. And all the 12 year olds got beer.

[upscout2000]

What would all say if the kid he slapped was his.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

You know that this question never was discussed at a round table of professional umpires...until the Blue Jays game of course.

As I wrote earlier, a coach who exhibits bad behavior towards his team can certainly be dealt with but most of us have never witnessed an atrocity worthy of ejection. If you see an assault and want to do the right thing, become a witness for the prosecution.

I once had a Dad/Coach walk out to right field and drag his kid back to the dugout. The kid refused to play right and thought he'd show his protest by trotting out there without his glove. His Dad/Coach realized this after a couple of the guys on the bench started laughing about it. He asked for 'Time' and walked out there...the kid turned white and the Dad/Coach grabbed him from behind the neck and dragged him off the field. It was not gentle and the kid was crying by the time he got to the dugout. The Dad/Coach came over to me and announced his replacement player and told me he would be leaving the park - his assistant would be taking over. The Dad/Coach grabbed his bag and the kid's arm and they walked to the car. I wouldn't have wanted to have been in that house when they got home. Two weeks later, I see the team and his kid is in right field - this time with a glove and a different attitude. Dad/Coach seemed to have mellowed too.

A parent asked me why I allowed that to happen to a sixteen year old kid. Since I was in the midst of stowing my gear after the game, I gave her a curt reply, "That Dad could handle it better than I could and his wife will handle him better that I ever will." Sometimes you have to know when to let go of a tiger's tail.

I like Garth's suggestion...if we all add him to the 'Ignore' list, life may just make more sense. I can't stand people who claim to be umpires but can't argue or defend their positions. Communication is fundamental to our discipline and sticking your fingers in your ears makes you look like a two year old. Learn, do, teach...that's what we are supposed to be doing here.

[PWL]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

The Bears lost when Kelly Leak got thrown out at the plate in the sixth inning. And all the 12 year olds got beer.

Now Kelly Leak is a mid forty washed out nothing. Looks like the movie had some truth to it after all.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by PWL

Now Kelly Leak is a mid forty washed out nothing. Looks like the movie had some truth to it after all.

Supposedly, this is a recent picture of Jackie Earle Haley, the actor who played Kelly Leak.

http://feltupbyjen.blogspot.com/2005...exclusive.html

[DG]

I have actually wondered if the kid the coach slapped was his own. Would it make any difference in the discussion? Had ESPN not had a microphone in the dugout and camera zoomed in on the team meeting going into the bottom of the 6th none of us would have known this happened. It was not a vicous attack, just a quick slap. The umpires on site probably did not know it happened and if they did they acted appropriately by doing nothing. I believe the coach was reprimanded by LL Baseball and that seems appropriate, but they would also not have known had the cameras and microphones not been on for all to see and hear.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by WhatWuzThatBlue

Decaf is probably in order here...you've taken the basic premise of this thread and manipulated it to serve your view.

Reading is fundamental.

I am not the one manipulating the topic. I have merely stripped it down to it's nakedness. Is it appropriate for an grown adult man to slap a 12 year old child across the face?

Simple question.

Others are the ones peforming mental and philosophical gymnastics to justify saying "yes." My reply is much simpler. "No."

A baseball uniform doesn't make it okay. Being a coach doesn't make it okay. Being in a dugout doesn't make it okay. Not approving of the child's language doesn't make it okay. And being in a position of power or authority over the child definately does not make it okay.

A simple question.

Can you answer it without attempting to justif, excuse or explain your answer?

Is it appropriate for a grown man to slap a child of 12 across the face?

Let me show you how one answers a simple yes or no question without babbling about why the answer is correct.

Watch carefully.

No.

Your turn. Yes or no.

[SanDiegoSteve]

No. Filling in space so post goes through.