Coach slaps Player...

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by LMan

Nothing. That slap does not exist.

You're kidding, right?

[Tim C]

I guess this all comes down to personal philosophy.

ChapJim asks what I would do on a city street (Brad Meyers)? Nothing.

What would I do if it was MLB (Gibbons etc.)? Nothing.

What would I do if it was NCAA (Knight or Kush)? Nothing.

What would I do in grocery store (mom spanking child)? Nothing.

See I don't personally believe "we" (humans) need to involve ourselves in other's activities.

PDXblue brings up dugout activites towards umpires (or I guess it could be bench jockey activity towards opponents) and that is a different animal.

Since I do not work games played by young players I have never been forced to make a decision about these type things -- it would be a hard test guys. A very hard test.

Regards,

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ChapJim

Would you watch a grown man assault a child on the street and do nothing? Why would you do nothing here?

Then let the parents take care of it. You are not here to solve all of the world’s problems. When I was growing up, my parents would have thanked the coach for his response if I used that language. If my parents heard me use that language, my parents would have slapped me on their own. It is not my job as an umpire to tell people how to discipline their kids and what is appropriate. If it is assault, let the authorities take care of it. I also have no idea how hard he hit the kid or if the kid was bruised or damaged because of the hit. All I know is I would not likely see something like this because I would be many feet away from hearing and many feet from seeing such a thing. The action took place in the dugout, not in the middle of the field.

Peace

[LMan]

Originally Posted by GarthB

You're kidding, right?

...now what would lead you to believe that?

[Lawrence.Dorsey]

I really have no idea what goes on in dugouts unless I have a reason. I have only ejected one player for behavior in the dugout:

In 2002, I was the UIC for the NC Dixie Pre-Majors (15-16) State Tournament. Somewhere along the 4th or 5th inning, the visiting team tries a hit and run. Batter never swings at the pitch (must have missed a sign), somehow the runner steals the base anyway. Anyway, it was strike three and the guy headed to the bench. It was a long way from the dugout so as soon as he left my peripheral vision I didn't pay much attention. Next thing I know I hear F-bombs left and right loud enough where I can hear and I assume the crowd as well. U1 and met halfway down the 1B line and my question to him was "Who have you got that's going?" I had the pitcher pegged and he did too. It laters turns out he was berating his teammate for missing the sign but how the heck were we supposed to know that. We ejected their starting pitcher and moved on.

U3, who stayed out of the conference, later told us he thought we were getting the retired batter. Apparently, again out of my sight, he launched his bat over the dugout as the cussing started. If we'd have gotten him too, the game and the tourney would have been over. It was a best 2 out of 3 and they only had 10 players on the roster. Ejected players were out of the game they got tossed plus a one game penalty.

In contrast, I know several years at Kannapolis (A-SAL), several of the Intimidators players were pushing and shoving in the dugout. The umpires got a good laugh and merely watched the goings on.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then let the parents take care of it. You are not here to solve all of the world’s problems. When I was growing up, my parents would have thanked the coach for his response if I used that language. If my parents heard me use that language, my parents would have slapped me on their own. It is not my job as an umpire to tell people how to discipline their kids and what is appropriate. If it is assault, let the authorities take care of it. I also have no idea how hard he hit the kid or if the kid was bruised or damaged because of the hit. All I know is I would not likely see something like this because I would be many feet away from hearing and many feet from seeing such a thing. The action took place in the dugout, not in the middle of the field.

Peace

You may want to rethink your stance on this. I happen to agree 100% with you!

The slap in question was no harder than that of slapping a mosquito. It did not bruise or otherwise damage the kid. My dad would have whooped my behind good for this. My dad would have authorized any adult supervisor to do the same thing. The problem lies with parents coddling and spoiling their children, a trend that has been occurring ever since....well, I don't want to start that argument again. Let's just say recent generations have been way too lenient in raising children, preferring to give them "time outs" rather than real discipline.

I know that it is not politically correct to advocate this coaches' behavior, but I've never been a subscriber to political correctness.

I also agree with Tee, that it is not my responsibility to interject myself into these kind of situations. If it had been out in plain sight, and actual physical abuse (which this little slap could in no way be confused with), then yes, eject the coach and report his actions.

The little brat in this case needed to have his mouth washed out with soap. It's one thing for kids hanging out together in private to say cuss words. That is normal behavior for teens and pre-teens. Proper parenting would prevent the use of this same language in a public setting.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Then let the parents take care of it. You are not here to solve all of the world’s problems. When I was growing up, my parents would have thanked the coach for his response if I used that language. If my parents heard me use that language, my parents would have slapped me on their own. It is not my job as an umpire to tell people how to discipline their kids and what is appropriate. If it is assault, let the authorities take care of it. I also have no idea how hard he hit the kid or if the kid was bruised or damaged because of the hit. All I know is I would not likely see something like this because I would be many feet away from hearing and many feet from seeing such a thing. The action took place in the dugout, not in the middle of the field.

Peace

This has nothing to do with what the kid may have said or have done. It has nothing to do with our judgment as to whether or not the kid "deserved it." An adult slapping the face of a 12 year old is violent behavior. If it is committed between participants of a game and witnessed by a sports official within the confines of the field, including the dugout, it needs to be addressed.

Few things are this cut and dried. This is.

[RPatrino]

Years and years ago, at San Jose's Municipal stadium. San Jose State vs. USF. The pitcher and F3 for USF get into a slugfest on the field. Great entertainment, no EJ's.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Well, that is what makes this old world wonderful, the right to have our own opinions. Nothing is cut and dried. Everyone has the right to feel differently than you do. That is what not living under a dictatorship affords us. What you see as violent behavior, another might see as a horrified coach's initial reaction, one which may not have been well thought out.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

This has nothing to do with what the kid may have said or have done. It has nothing to do with our judgment as to whether or not the kid "deserved it." An adult slapping the face of a 12 year old is violent behavior. If it is committed between participants of a game and witnessed by a sports official within the confines of the field, including the dugout, it needs to be addressed.

Few things are this cut and dried. This is.

Garth,

Your approach to this is wrong from my point of view. This will also not be solved here as well. Maybe you feel this is assault, I do not. We have made every action towards children wrong or against the law. You cannot yell at them, you cannot touch them; you cannot hurt their feelings without being considered violent or abusive. Here in lies the problem. When I was a kid if I did something wrong, my Mom and Dad would have expected a "whoopin" from other adults and I would have gotten a "whoopin" from my parents again when I got home. That is the time I grew up in. We have kids nowadays calling adults by their first names and that does not bother them. The bottom line this is cut and dry for you because I believe you have bought into the idea of what this society's standards which too many have eroded this society. Today we have more kids that committing crimes, killing people, selling drugs and we want to make an adult responsible because he was trying to show the kid some level of respect for what he was doing. We have had kids shoot up schools and had an arsenal for months in their parent’s house of all places. When I was a kid I could not have a lock on my door or a TV in my room. Now parents give their kids cell phones and do not know what the word “NO” means. I realize my point of view is not the norm on this, but I have never been to jail and never committed crimes in my life. I was afraid of my parents and today all the adults want to be their kids friends. Instead of setting standards of conduct, we sue officials because someone threw little Johnny out of a game for conduct which the rules of the game clearly see as wrong. Garth, I just do not buy into this society that tells us kids are equals to adults and have the same rights as adults. Then we hold the adults responsible when the kids act out or do things that break the law but you cannot discipline them without a threat of a lawyer having a say.

Peace

[BlueLawyer]

Years and years ago, (i.e., back when I was a kid), corporal punishment was not only accepted but also expected as a form of disciplining kids. Not so much now.

My state statute defines child abuse as, among other things, the striking of a child in the face. When I was a prosecutor, I was a mandated reporter.

Society's move towards "hands off the kids" has mixed results, at best. On the other hand, no one with a brain can deny that for years, child and spousal abuse was ignored by society as "none of our business". Somewhere in the middle, there is sanity.

I cannot agree with the philosophical approach that since it happened in the dugout, it's none of my (the umpire's) business. If the kid or the coach had dropped the F-bomb (i.e., "You're f-ing terrible, Blue!") on me from the dugout, you can be sure I would have dumped him- regardless of the geography. I have ejected players and managers from dugouts before. And, I cannot agree that any treatment a coach gives his own player is likewise none of my concern. If it disrupts the game or it is a genuine physical threat to the kid, I'm making it my concern.

This situation, in this game, I would not have involved myself. That does not mean I am automatically disqualifying myself from every situation bearing some cousinly resemblance to this one.

Strikes and outs!

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by GarthB

This has nothing to do with what the kid may have said or have done. It has nothing to do with our judgment as to whether or not the kid "deserved it." An adult slapping the face of a 12 year old is violent behavior. If it is committed between participants of a game and witnessed by a sports official within the confines of the field, including the dugout, it needs to be addressed.

Few things are this cut and dried. This is.

Garth

IMO you're getting too hung up on this. Your job as an official is to enforce the rules of the game. No more, no less. Was the reaction of the coach inappropriate? Yes. But, I would bet that 95% of adults supervising kids in such a higly emotional setting as the World Series would react much the same way.

If I'm working a game and a coach kicks the $#!t out of a kid on the mound, he's done and I'm reporting the incident to the authorities. But a little slap because the kid is spreading F-bombs on national TV? Please...

BTW- Steve,

I'm a younger generation parent of 3 kids. I subscribe to the 'time out' method to a degree. What I mean is when I tell my 12 year old son to stop teasing his younger brother, if he doesn't he gets a time out. But if he is being disrespectful to an adult... let's just say that I've been told that my kids are very respectful...

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Garth

IMO you're getting too hung up on this. Your job as an official is to enforce the rules of the game. No more, no less. Was the reaction of the coach inappropriate? Yes. But, I would bet that 95% of adults supervising kids in such a higly emotional setting as the World Series would react much the same way.

If I'm working a game and a coach kicks the $#!t out of a kid on the mound, he's done and I'm reporting the incident to the authorities. But a little slap because the kid is spreading F-bombs on national TV? Please...

BTW- Steve,

I'm a younger generation parent of 3 kids. I subscribe to the 'time out' method to a degree. What I mean is when I tell my 12 year old son to stop teasing his younger brother, if he doesn't he gets a time out. But if he is being disrespectful to an adult... let's just say that I've been told that my kids are very respectful...

And I believe that others are trying way too hard to excuse the basic act: a grown man slapping a 12 year old kid in the face.

There was no excuse for that violent behavior. The kid didn't "make him do it". He is the grown up, supposedly in charge of his actions and he decided upon an act of violence. This is reprehensible behavior and has no place at 12 year old level baseball game.

Do I have a bias? Of course. I am biased against violence towards children and I am biased against adults who cannot control themselves.

[ctblu40]

You keep repeating violent behavior... violent behavior.
I guess I disagree that this classifies as violent behavior. The coach did not harm the kid... just put him in his place, and rightly so.

Would you have been okay with the coach making the kid wear a dunce cap and sit in the corner of the dugout with his thumb in his mouth? It wouldn't be violent...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by GarthB

And I believe that others are trying way too hard to excuse the basic act: a grown man slapping a 12 year old kid in the face.

Once again, you see this as a problem, I see this as discipline. This was one slap, not a beating where the kid had to have stitches or a hospital stay.

Originally Posted by GarthB

There was no excuse for that violent behavior. The kid didn't "make him do it". He is the grown up, supposedly in charge of his actions and he decided upon an act of violence. This is reprehensible behavior and has no place at 12 year old level baseball game.

Many of us had to deal with the same things as a kid and we came out alright.

Originally Posted by GarthB

Do I have a bias? Of course. I am biased against violence towards children and I am biased against adults who cannot control themselves.

You call it violence, I call it discipline. Now I always find it funny that on one hand violence is bad, but the same people seem to advocate violence to handle other problems. So either all violence is all bad or there should be situation to situation consideration.

Peace