Foul Ball (not tips) Concussions

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

Again, another discussion on HSM was not my point. Your statement, however begs the question, did you read the "The obvious indisputable part is that they (HSM) offer protection on the top and sides unlike traditional masks" part.

I don't mind a discussion but get the facts right.

Whether or not there is a piece of plastic does not automatically make the helmet safer.

You said this was not about the helmet vs. mask debate, but every post you are defending the use of a helmet and claiming the helmet is safer. Sounds like you are trying to have the debate from where I am standing.

Peace

[Kaliix]

I really wasn't trying to make this a debate about the HSM vs traditional masks as anyone who has been paying attention to the previous threads will know that most minds are not going to be changed on this issue. I was only responding to those who chose to ignore some blatantly obvious facts.

That being said, Jeff are you some kind of idiot? The masks that umpires wear that are styled after hockey goalie masks are designed to provide protection from the impact of objects at high speeds, baseballs at 70 to 100 mph depending on the level of ball, or bats. Calling the material it is made out of plastic is a bit disingenuous, as my materials college instructor would say, because there are literally thousands of different kinds of plastic, all with varying capabilities in regards to a multitude of material characteristics.

The plastic, as you call it, is specifically designed for maximum impact protection. It has "plastic" foam padding behind specifically designed to disperse and absorb impact. Said plastic covers the entire head, unlike a traditional mask which only gives protection to the front of the head.

While you may not like HSM, and that is absolutely fine by me, I refuse to let you or others spread untruths about them, because I am happy and satisfied user who sees the obvious addtional benefits from wearing them.

Stay with the traditional mask, but don't tell me that the HSM are not inherently safer. I saw the MLB umpire take a shattered bat against the side of his head last weekend. He absolutely would have been better protected had he been wearing a HSM. That fact that he wasn't is his personal preference and doesn't diminish his choice one bit. But facts are facts.

I've had balls come whizzing back by my head from short backstops and know that if they caught my noggin, I'd see stars and have a nice lump. So I choose to wear a HSM.

Please stay with your traditional mask. Just don't tell me the HSM's aren't safer because you are flat out wrong.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Whether or not there is a piece of plastic does not automatically make the helmet safer.

You said this was not about the helmet vs. mask debate, but every post you are defending the use of a helmet and claiming the helmet is safer. Sounds like you are trying to have the debate from where I am standing.

Peace

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

While you may not like HSM, and that is absolutely fine by me, I refuse to let you or others spread untruths about them, because I am happy and satisfied user who sees the obvious addtional benefits from wearing them.

I've heard that they cause male pattern baldness.... is this true?

[Kaliix]

Is that what happened to all my hair...

Originally Posted by ctblu40

I've heard that they cause male pattern baldness.... is this true?

[JRutledge]

I love how when people do not have a larger point, they have to start name calling because they cannot find the words to back up their point.

If you want to wear a mask, why would anyone but you care?

All I asked for was a comprehensive study or some kind of to back up your claim. Remember you are talking about concussions, not over all protection. All you have are a couple of stories and opinions. Now with my background you need some kind of study to back up the claims of the safety features of a helmet.

For the record I have done many games where I have been hit with a baseball around the 90 mph. I have had my masked knocked completely off. I have never received one concussion or had any ill effects from a ball or bat hitting the mask. It would be dumb to conclude that because "I" have not had any problems, others could not experience their own problems. I am also sure the type of mask used would be a factor. I am sure the padding would also be a factor and even the type of bars that the masks use. Guys get hurt in football all the time and there are no 90-100 mph balls flying at them. I am sure there are multiple factors as to why people get concussions and getting hit on the head with a bat. Helmet or no helmet the situations you described might still result in a concussion. It is called analytical thinking. I am not going to draw a conclusion based on some story that someone "believes" they were hurt because of wearing a certain kind of equipment. Any educated person can think of many facets that might cause a health problem.

It sounds to me like this helmet is like a new girlfriend that you found and you keep talking about her as if the rest of us cannot see her. We can come to our own conclusions as it if your woman is hot or not, we do not need you telling us all the time. You like the helmet, we get it already!!!

Peace

[Kaliix]

Jeff, you know I really try to believe that you are not as dumb as you act sometimes and then you come back with this.

For the record, I did not call you any names in my previous post. I asked you a question. That question has now been answered and I am now absolutely calling you an idiot. At least now you can be offended for the right reason. It's rare that I "name call" but I am making an exception in this case.

You are either a troll or an idiot incapable of having a legitimate argument based on facts.

I already stated in a previous post that HSM vs traditional masks are about equal when it comes to protecting against a concussion. The two firms hired by the Giants organization say as much. I could get into the minutiae of looking at the test data but I trust that with the amount of money a major league club has both at stake and to spend, that the two independent tests, which both reach the same conclusion, are accurate.

It should have been obvious that we are talking about HSM being safer because they cover the entire head. Bats and ball can and have hit the head in places that traditional masks do not protect. Additionally, I remember someone relaying a story about a traditional mask spinning around after a foul ball and giving a cut requiring four stitches. Granted a somewhat freak occurence, but it happened.

A HSM protects more of the head, period. It is safer for that reason. Do or don't wear one, I don't give a flying farg, but get you facts straight! Jeez!

More to the point, we need to be aware that whatever mask we wear (as they both protect equally well in this case), we can be subject to a concussion from multiple blows. That was my original point.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I love how when people do not have a larger point, they have to start name calling because they cannot find the words to back up their point.

If you want to wear a mask, why would anyone but you care?

All I asked for was a comprehensive study or some kind of to back up your claim. Remember you are talking about concussions, not over all protection. All you have are a couple of stories and opinions. Now with my background you need some kind of study to back up the claims of the safety features of a helmet.

For the record I have done many games where I have been hit with a baseball around the 90 mph. I have had my masked knocked completely off. I have never received one concussion or had any ill effects from a ball or bat hitting the mask. It would be dumb to conclude that because "I" have not had any problems, others could not experience their own problems. I am also sure the type of mask used would be a factor. I am sure the padding would also be a factor and even the type of bars that the masks use. Guys get hurt in football all the time and there are no 90-100 mph balls flying at them. I am sure there are multiple factors as to why people get concussions and getting hit on the head with a bat. Helmet or no helmet the situations you described might still result in a concussion. It is called analytical thinking. I am not going to draw a conclusion based on some story that someone "believes" they were hurt because of wearing a certain kind of equipment. Any educated person can think of many facets that might cause a health problem.

It sounds to me like this helmet is like a new girlfriend that you found and you keep talking about her as if the rest of us cannot see her. We can come to our own conclusions as it if your woman is hot or not, we do not need you telling us all the time. You like the helmet, we get it already!!!

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

Jeff, you know I really try to believe that you are not as dumb as you act sometimes and then you come back with this.

For the record, I did not call you any names in my previous post. I asked you a question. That question has now been answered and I am now absolutely calling you an idiot. At least now you can be offended for the right reason. It's rare that I "name call" but I am making an exception in this case.

You are either a troll or an idiot incapable of having a legitimate argument based on facts.

If this is not name calling, I do not know what is.

Originally Posted by Kaliix

I already stated in a previous post that HSM vs traditional masks are about equal when it comes to protecting against a concussion. The two firms hired by the Giants organization say as much. I could get into the minutiae of looking at the test data but I trust that with the amount of money a major league club has both at stake and to spend, that the two independent tests, which both reach the same conclusion, are accurate.

Are you saying that the entire medical community has signed off on these studies? Are you telling me that everyone from the medical profession agrees with the methodology of the studies and there are no further studies that need to be done? These are simple questions, not understanding why these are hard to understand. There are medical professionals that cannot agree on the effects of Steroids and the heath effects on the body, now you want me to believe that a club doing a study changes the amount of disagreement out there on causes and solutions of concussions?

Originally Posted by Kaliix

It should have been obvious that we are talking about HSM being safer because they cover the entire head. Bats and ball can and have hit the head in places that traditional masks do not protect. Additionally, I remember someone relaying a story about a traditional mask spinning around after a foul ball and giving a cut requiring four stitches. Granted a somewhat freak occurence, but it happened.

Concussions are more than likely come about when your brain hits the walls of your skull during some kind of head trauma. This is why you see football players with concussions a lot mainly because they are hit with such force, there body is jolted. Many times they come about in football not as a result of the actual hitting of the head, but the way their brain moves forcefully in different directions.

Originally Posted by Kaliix

A HSM protects more of the head, period. It is safer for that reason. Do or don't wear one, I don't give a flying farg, but get you facts straight! Jeez!

More to the point, we need to be aware that whatever mask we wear (as they both protect equally well in this case), we can be subject to a concussion from multiple blows. That was my original point.

So what you are telling me know is you are a medical doctor or a physicist and that is the conclusion all doctors will come to only because the head is protected. Aren't football players heads completely covered too? Why was Troy Aikman getting concussions every other week at the end of his career? You are talking about facts, but simply having your head covered does not elude you from having a concussion. I was only asking a question so to get clarification if all these factors have been explored. I am also sure all helmets are not made the same. I know all football all helmets are not the same and there are no conclusive evidence as to which helmet works and why. If that was the case I am sure only certain kinds of helmets would be made legal and others would be considered illegal. As a typical internet umpire you took my comments and ran with them. I would ask any doctor the very same questions I am asking you. To me you are WAAAAAAYYYYYYY too emotional about this issue. You claim their are facts and I bet if I went to a neurologist or some kind of brain specialist they might not be so quick to say what you are saying here about helmet safety.

Dude, wear the damn helmet. I am sure you are not going to change the minds of many people.

Peace

[Kaliix]

Jeff, I actually said I was calling you a name and you say, if this isn't name calling, I don't know what is... What?!?

I believe you are trolling but let's try this one more time. The medical community doesn't have to sign off on anything. We are not talking about concussions. We are talking about the ability of two different protective mask designs to resist, deflect, absorb or do anything but not transfer energy to the head. This is a very measurable effect. Something transfers energy or it doesn't. If it does, how much? You place sensors at various points and hit the maks from all directions. You get quantifiable data as a result and you can determine with scientific accuracy how well a mask protects from the force of a baseball hitting it.

The whole process is not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. Biomechanical engineers, et al. have been crash testing cars for years and have gotten very good at figuring out how to make crash dummies replicate almost exactly how the human body responds to various types of impacts. I feel confident in saying this as the National Geographic Channel just aired a special detailing the various types of impacts that different martial artists can deliver. They hired crash test experts (biomechanical engineers and the like) to run their tests. They do impact measuring for a living, every day, and can accurately measure exactly how the human body reacts to impact, whether it be from an automobile or fist, elbow, knee, etc. Measuring a baseball hitting a mask from various angles at various speeds would be right up their alley and just wouldn't be that damn hard to figure out.

Now I am NOT saying that we understand exactly why people get concussions or why they affect some and not others. But we can measure the kind of forces delivered and we can compare how those forces would be withstood by different types of masks. That part isn't hard.

The fact that two independent labs said that the traditional mask and the hockey style mask have roughly the same protective qualities in terms of baseballs hitting them means that the tests are confirmed and reproduceable. We know exactly what kinds of forces the helmets/masks will withstand and how much force will be transferred to the head. What happens after that is not so certain in terms of how concussions happen, their effects short term vs. long, etc.

More to the point, a HSM covers more of the head. If a ball hits the back of an unprotected head, your gonna get hurt. If a broken bat hits you upside your unprotected head, you will get hurt. If you have an HSM and those things happen, in the same way, you likely suffer nothing more than you would if you got tagged with a foul ball while behind the plate, maybe less. Ergo, the HSM is safer.

That's all I'm saying Jeff, the HSM is a helmet designed to protect from impact. Take a foul ball straight back with either a traditional mask or an HSM and you will be protected in relatively the same way. How much that hit effects you is certainly debatable, but the transfer of energy will be roughly the same with either one. And it is entirely measureable.

Getting hit anywhere in the head but in the front is not that common an occurence. But if it happens, you will not be protected with a traditional mask. It is a relatively minor risk statistically speaking, so I completely understand umpires not rushing to wear HSM. But if that statistically minor chance happens to you, it isn't so minor. Depending on where you work, the chances might increase and so for some of us, we choose to wear an HSM (their are other reasons, but whatever).

As I said before, I am not trying to convert you. I just like a good discussion and I want the facts straight. You are under this delusion that we can't quantify the differences between the protective qualities of the two styles of masks. It just ain't so. We can and we have. Straight on hits, both styles offer the same protection. In the less likely event that you get hit some where else on your head (that is to say, the side, top or back) you are still protected with an HSM and not protected with a traditional mask.

Capiche?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this is not name calling, I do not know what is.



Are you saying that the entire medical community has signed off on these studies? Are you telling me that everyone from the medical profession agrees with the methodology of the studies and there are no further studies that need to be done? These are simple questions, not understanding why these are hard to understand. There are medical professionals that cannot agree on the effects of Steroids and the heath effects on the body, now you want me to believe that a club doing a study changes the amount of disagreement out there on causes and solutions of concussions?



Concussions are more than likely come about when your brain hits the walls of your skull during some kind of head trauma. This is why you see football players with concussions a lot mainly because they are hit with such force, there body is jolted. Many times they come about in football not as a result of the actual hitting of the head, but the way their brain moves forcefully in different directions.



So what you are telling me know is you are a medical doctor or a physicist and that is the conclusion all doctors will come to only because the head is protected. Aren't football players heads completely covered too? Why was Troy Aikman getting concussions every other week at the end of his career? You are talking about facts, but simply having your head covered does not elude you from having a concussion. I was only asking a question so to get clarification if all these factors have been explored. I am also sure all helmets are not made the same. I know all football all helmets are not the same and there are no conclusive evidence as to which helmet works and why. If that was the case I am sure only certain kinds of helmets would be made legal and others would be considered illegal. As a typical internet umpire you took my comments and ran with them. I would ask any doctor the very same questions I am asking you. To me you are WAAAAAAYYYYYYY too emotional about this issue. You claim their are facts and I bet if I went to a neurologist or some kind of brain specialist they might not be so quick to say what you are saying here about helmet safety.

Dude, wear the damn helmet. I am sure you are not going to change the minds of many people.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kaliix

Jeff, I actually said I was calling you a name and you say, if this isn't name calling, I don't know what is... What?!?

I believe you are trolling but let's try this one more time. The medical community doesn't have to sign off on anything. We are not talking about concussions. We are talking about the ability of two different protective mask designs to resist, deflect, absorb or do anything but not transfer energy to the head. This is a very measurable effect. Something transfers energy or it doesn't. If it does, how much? You place sensors at various points and hit the maks from all directions. You get quantifiable data as a result and you can determine with scientific accuracy how well a mask protects from the force of a baseball hitting it.

Remember you started this thread. From what I understand this was not a hot topic of conversation outside of the "Mask vs. Helmet" discussion that has been had several times on this board. These discussions never change anyone's mind or changes. Obviously this is a very emotional discussion for you.

Originally Posted by Kaliix

The whole process is not nearly as hard as you make it out to be. Biomechanical engineers, et al. have been crash testing cars for years and have gotten very good at figuring out how to make crash dummies replicate almost exactly how the human body responds to various types of impacts. I feel confident in saying this as the National Geographic Channel just aired a special detailing the various types of impacts that different martial artists can deliver. They hired crash test experts (biomechanical engineers and the like) to run their tests. They do impact measuring for a living, every day, and can accurately measure exactly how the human body reacts to impact, whether it be from an automobile or fist, elbow, knee, etc. Measuring a baseball hitting a mask from various angles at various speeds would be right up their alley and just wouldn't be that damn hard to figure out.

What does this have to do with baseball and the likelihood of concussions?

Originally Posted by Kaliix

Now I am NOT saying that we understand exactly why people get concussions or why they affect some and not others. But we can measure the kind of forces delivered and we can compare how those forces would be withstood by different types of masks. That part isn't hard.

Wait a minute; you had all the facts right?

Originally Posted by Kaliix

The fact that two independent labs said that the traditional mask and the hockey style mask have roughly the same protective qualities in terms of baseballs hitting them means that the tests are confirmed and reproduceable. We know exactly what kinds of forces the helmets/masks will withstand and how much force will be transferred to the head. What happens after that is not so certain in terms of how concussions happen, their effects short term vs. long, etc.

You obviously do not know much about studies. Usually you need more that two studies and the studies have to use the correct methodology.

Originally Posted by Kaliix

More to the point, a HSM covers more of the head. If a ball hits the back of an unprotected head, your gonna get hurt. If a broken bat hits you upside your unprotected head, you will get hurt. If you have an HSM and those things happen, in the same way, you likely suffer nothing more than you would if you got tagged with a foul ball while behind the plate, maybe less. Ergo, the HSM is safer.

You are? Wow, considering I saw a guy get hit on the top of the head with a pitched baseball, he continued the game and had no affects from the baseball.

Originally Posted by Kaliix

That's all I'm saying Jeff, the HSM is a helmet designed to protect from impact. Take a foul ball straight back with either a traditional mask or an HSM and you will be protected in relatively the same way. How much that hit effects you is certainly debatable, but the transfer of energy will be roughly the same with either one. And it is entirely measureable.

You are right you have all the answers in front of you.

Originally Posted by Kaliix

Getting hit anywhere in the head but in the front is not that common an occurence. But if it happens, you will not be protected with a traditional mask. It is a relatively minor risk statistically speaking, so I completely understand umpires not rushing to wear HSM. But if that statistically minor chance happens to you, it isn't so minor. Depending on where you work, the chances might increase and so for some of us, we choose to wear an HSM (their are other reasons, but whatever).

Once again, you know.

Originally Posted by Kaliix

As I said before, I am not trying to convert you. I just like a good discussion and I want the facts straight. You are under this delusion that we can't quantify the differences between the protective qualities of the two styles of masks. It just ain't so. We can and we have. Straight on hits, both styles offer the same protection. In the less likely event that you get hit some where else on your head (that is to say, the side, top or back) you are still protected with an HSM and not protected with a traditional mask.

Capiche?

I did not say we could not quantify data. This shows that this is a very emotional thing for you. You sound like you are going to get on a tower and start shooting people because they do not believe in your way of thinking. Relax man, it will be OK.

Peace