Little league question

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer

I don't totally agree with that - it has to be a protestable situation. If it's a judgement call, it is NOT a protestable situation - period. Illegal pitcher, not meeting MPR are protestable situations . . .

Balk.

That wasn't a balk.

Yes it was.

I protest.

You can't protest, it's a judgment call.

I think you called it because you don't understand the balk rule.

I called it because the pitcher went to his mouth on the mound. That's a balk.

See, I told you - no it isn't. The rule says the penalty for that infraction is a ball.

No it doesn't - and don't you even think of whipping that rulebook out on me, boy.

OK, but I protest.

You can't protest, it's a judgment call.

[Dave Hensley]

As a follow up in support of my claim that accepting a protest even if it's over a judgment decision is what we should do, following is Evans on the subject:

Professional Interpretation: At times, a manager may insist on lodging a protest on a decision which is, in essence, a judgment call. After explaining the prohibition against protesting judgment calls, the umpire should go ahead and accept the protest in order to proceed with the game in a timely manner. It will then be the league president's responsibility to nullify the improperly lodged protest.

Little League officials encourage the same practice - in order to expedite the resolution of the protest, don't try to shut it down even if you're sure it's frivolous. Just pass it on, and it will (hopefully) be rejected as it should be, by following due process.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

As a follow up in support of my claim that accepting a protest even if it's over a judgment decision is what we should do, following is Evans on the subject:

Professional Interpretation: At times, a manager may insist on lodging a protest on a decision which is, in essence, a judgment call. After explaining the prohibition against protesting judgment calls, the umpire should go ahead and accept the protest in order to proceed with the game in a timely manner. It will then be the league president's responsibility to nullify the improperly lodged protest.

Little League officials encourage the same practice - in order to expedite the resolution of the protest, don't try to shut it down even if you're sure it's frivolous. Just pass it on, and it will (hopefully) be rejected as it should be, by following due process.

I agree with this 100%. But, at what point of the protest 'chain' does the improperly lodged protest end?
I mean, in LL tournament play, the protest must be decided on before the game continues, right? So, what if the manager doesn't agree with the decision of the TD? Then he disagrees with the dirtrict, then state, then regional, and now he's reached LL Int'l. This seems like an awefully lot of wasted time on a non-protestable call.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

As a follow up in support of my claim that accepting a protest even if it's over a judgment decision is what we should do, following is Evans on the subject:

Professional Interpretation: At times, a manager may insist on lodging a protest on a decision which is, in essence, a judgment call. After explaining the prohibition against protesting judgment calls, the umpire should go ahead and accept the protest in order to proceed with the game in a timely manner. It will then be the league president's responsibility to nullify the improperly lodged protest.

Little League officials encourage the same practice - in order to expedite the resolution of the protest, don't try to shut it down even if you're sure it's frivolous. Just pass it on, and it will (hopefully) be rejected as it should be, by following due process.

I hope this doesn't sound retarded. As I formulate this in my mind, it doesn't. Does that mean that a coach can protest a game because an umpire is calling strikes out of the strike zone? He's not arguing balls & strikes, he's "protesting". The umpire is misinterpreting the rule of what the zone is supposed to be. I know it's far-fetched, but are you going to allow that protest?

[Dave Hensley]

Yes, it is a waste of time, and yes, even the protest that the umpire is misinterpreting the strikezone SHOULD be run up the protest flagpole, after using best efforts to persuade the coach that he's erroneously protesting a judgment call.

During regular season, I personally endorse the use of a protest fee to discourage the filing of frivolous protests. I don't even mind serving on the protest committee, if the coach is going to pay for the pizza and beer.

During tournament, the expectation is that the coaches will be more competent and informed than your average coach, and would not be so obstinate as to keep protesting all the way to Williamsport when the umpire, the tournament director, and the regional committee have all told him he's a doofus.

But, the rule is the rule. If the coach disagrees with you that he is protesting something that is not protestable, you as the umpire cannot refuse to accept the protest. You must do as the rule says and follow the due process.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Play was stopped to discuss a substitution issue.

Then, "When they resumed Venuzuela had a runner on first. Tulsa pulled a hidden ball trick and tagged the runner out at first before any pitches were thrown."

Nothing said about the ball being dead for the hidden ball, is there?

And you'll notice, sj has followed up with another post. I was right.

Play was stopped for 25 minutes. Are you telling me the ball was not dead during this time? In a game you work would you allow a hidden ball trick after a 25 minute delay of any kind?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by DG

Play was stopped for 25 minutes. Are you telling me the ball was not dead during this time? In a game you work would you allow a hidden ball trick after a 25 minute delay of any kind?

Are you illiterate?

The hidden ball play came after the ball was put in play and a subsequent pickoff attempt at first base.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

Are you illiterate?

The hidden ball play came after the ball was put in play and a subsequent pickoff attempt at first base.

The ball can not be put in play until the pitcher toes the rubber with it after a dead ball, and I believe the ball should be dead while they discussed anything for 25 minutes.

Read the 1st post - "play was stopped", then read the 4th post "after a 25 minute delay". You would consider the ball live during this play stoppage and allow a hidden ball trick to succeed without putting the ball in play legallly? Answer the question.

[CJN]

Originally Posted by DG

The ball can not be put in play until the pitcher toes the rubber with it after a dead ball, and I believe the ball should be dead while they discussed a substitution for 25 minutes. You would consider the ball live during this play stoppage? Answer the question.

Read this carefully, I will spell it out for you.

After the stoppage F1 is on the rubber with the ball. PU puts the ball in play. F1 attempts a pick-off to first. F3 walks the ball back towards F1 and pretends to give it to him, then returns to his position with the ball. F1 pretends to tie his shoe. R1 wanders off the base and is tagged by F3.

It's not that hard to understand!

[DG]

Originally Posted by CJN

Read this carefully, I will spell it out for you.

After the stoppage F1 is on the rubber with the ball. PU puts the ball in play. F1 attempts a pick-off to first. F3 walks the ball back towards F1 and pretends to give it to him, then returns to his position with the ball. F1 pretends to tie his shoe. R1 wanders off the base and is tagged by F3.

It's not that hard to understand!

Yes, I went back and re-read all the posts. The pickoff was introduced in post #21 well after the 1st and 4th posts that did not mention a pickoff. Now, what I what I don't understand is why a pickoff in LL baseball where you can't leave the base until the pitch reaches the batter.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by DG

Yes, I went back and re-read all the posts. The pickoff was introduced in post #21 well after the 1st and 4th posts that did not mention a pickoff. Now, what I what I don't understand is why a pickoff in LL baseball where you can't leave the base until the pitch reaches the batter.

Because this was a World Series game being played somewhere other than Williamsport, which means it was Jr, Sr, or Big League where leadoffs are allowed...

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by DG

Yes, I went back and re-read all the posts.

You apparently missed that this was not at Williamsport.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Because this was a World Series game being played somewhere other than Williamsport, which means it was Jr, Sr, or Big League where leadoffs are allowed...

In fact, the original post mentioned it was in Bangor (Maine) which everyone knows is where they have the SENIOR Little League World Series.

[DG]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

In fact, the original post mentioned it was in Bangor (Maine) which everyone knows is where they have the SENIOR Little League World Series.

Yes, I missed this was not in Williamsport. I thought it was a regional game. There is very little little league in these parts so I would not know anything about Bangor Maine. Anyway, it makes more sense now that it was not in Williamsport.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by DG

Yes, I missed this was not in Williamsport. I thought it was a regional game. There is very little little league in these parts so I would not know anything about Bangor Maine. Anyway, it makes more sense now that it was not in Williamsport.

I was kidding with the "everyone knows" comment. I wouldn't expect many to know just from a passing reference to "bangor" that it was an upper division of Little League that was being discussed.