Little league question

[sj]

My nephew is playing as we speak in the little world series in bangor. They are in the fifth inning and Venuzuela has stopped the game with some sort of question about a substitution. My question is not what the rule is but the announcers on the radio are saying that the LL officials on site are calling the Little league home office in Williamsport and their are rule books being pulled out and such.

My question goes to how they are handling itself. I do football and basketball and cannot imagine pulling out rule books and calling home offices while a game is going on, Is this a baseball thing?

[bob jenkins]

It's a LL World Series (and the whole LL post-season) thing.

[sj]

Thanks Bob. Obviously it must be acceptable. It's just that it's something I don't think could ever happen in a basketball or football game. You have your on site refs/umps and site managers and their decision stands and that's it. It sounds like Venezuela has issued a formal protest. So they've stopped the game until it's resolved. It's something about leaving the game as a pitcher and then re-entering as a pitcher.

By the way do you think Gary is ever going to get the other board up again?

[sj]

After about a 25 minute delay they ruled in favor of Tulsa.

This is pretty funny. When they resumed Venuzuela had a runner on first. Tulsa pulled a hidden ball trick and tagged the runner out at first before any pitches were thrown.

I guess that's a good way to stick it to them for the delay.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by sj

After about a 25 minute delay they ruled in favor of Tulsa.

This is pretty funny. When they resumed Venuzuela had a runner on first. Tulsa pulled a hidden ball trick and tagged the runner out at first before any pitches were thrown.

I guess that's a good way to stick it to them for the delay.

That would be pretty hard to do, although possible if there was an intervening pickoff attempt or something like that.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by sj

After about a 25 minute delay they ruled in favor of Tulsa.

This is pretty funny. When they resumed Venuzuela had a runner on first. Tulsa pulled a hidden ball trick and tagged the runner out at first before any pitches were thrown.

I guess that's a good way to stick it to them for the delay.

WHAT?

Did the umpire start play without the ball in the pitcher's hand?

And why did the runner step off at all in LL?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

WHAT?

Did the umpire start play without the ball in the pitcher's hand?

And why did the runner step off at all in LL?

I think this is the Senior League World Series, and if this is the case, the umpires screwed the pooch by putting it in play without the pitcher having the ball.

The umpiring doesn't improve at the higher level, unfortunately.

[CJN]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

WHAT?

Did the umpire start play without the ball in the pitcher's hand?

And why did the runner step off at all in LL?

This is the Senior League(15-16) World Series, not Little League Majors that is on TV.

[bluezebra]

Originally Posted by sj

After about a 25 minute delay they ruled in favor of Tulsa.

This is pretty funny. When they resumed Venuzuela had a runner on first. Tulsa pulled a hidden ball trick and tagged the runner out at first before any pitches were thrown.

I guess that's a good way to stick it to them for the delay.

In two words, IM POSSIBLE. The ball cannot be put back into play until the pitcher has the ball in his possession and ready to pitch, the catcher is in position to receive the pitch, and the batter is in the box. If the umpires allowed a hidden ball trick, they need more schooling.

Bob

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by bluezebra

In two words, IM POSSIBLE. The ball cannot be put back into play until the pitcher has the ball in his possession and ready to pitch, the catcher is in position to receive the pitch, and the batter is in the box. If the umpires allowed a hidden ball trick, they need more schooling.

Bob

After time has been called it is not impossible for a hidden ball play to be done before any pitches are thrown. It is very possible that the ball was made live correctly before the play.

[DG]

Originally Posted by sj

After about a 25 minute delay they ruled in favor of Tulsa.

This is pretty funny. When they resumed Venuzuela had a runner on first. Tulsa pulled a hidden ball trick and tagged the runner out at first before any pitches were thrown.

I assume the ball was dead during the 25 minute delay and to make it live the pitcher has to toe the rubber with the ball, batter in box, catcher in box, and umpire say play. If the pitcher toed the rubber without the ball it is not legally live even if the umpire said so. Hidden ball trick is impossible after a dead ball.

At Babe Ruth tournaments there is a protest committee, generally 3 people, one designee from each side and the TD or designee. If there is a protest this committee decides after hearing the issue. Decision is final.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by sj

My nephew is playing as we speak in the little world series in bangor. They are in the fifth inning and Venuzuela has stopped the game with some sort of question about a substitution. My question is not what the rule is but the announcers on the radio are saying that the LL officials on site are calling the Little league home office in Williamsport and their are rule books being pulled out and such.

My question goes to how they are handling itself. I do football and basketball and cannot imagine pulling out rule books and calling home offices while a game is going on, Is this a baseball thing?

What you were observing was the LL tournament version of resolving a formal protest. The protesting manager basically has an expedited escalation process all the way through (1) the umpires on the field, (2) the tournament director, (3) the regional director, and (4) the Tournament Committee in Williamsport. As long as the protesting manager refuses to accept the decision of a lower level, he has the 100% right to escalate to the next level.

During the early part of the tournament, it can result in lots and lots of calls going to Williamsport, and sometimes delays of an hour or more before a final resolution.

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

What you were observing was the LL tournament version of resolving a formal protest. The protesting manager basically has an expedited escalation process all the way through (1) the umpires on the field, (2) the tournament director, (3) the regional director, and (4) the Tournament Committee in Williamsport. As long as the protesting manager refuses to accept the decision of a lower level, he has the 100% right to escalate to the next level.

During the early part of the tournament, it can result in lots and lots of calls going to Williamsport, and sometimes delays of an hour or more before a final resolution.

There's a way around this, and I have used it.

Mgr. "We want to protest."

Me, "Please specify."

[Substiute your own here]: "That's an illegal pitch."

"No it isn't. This is a judgment call, ergo, no protest will be heard. Play on, MacDuff."

"But the rule book says ..."

"No protest shall be considered on a decision involving an umpire's judgment."

"I'm not happy with that."

"And I'm not happy that this taking so long. Find a seat and resume coahing."

Since the protest is not considered in the first place, there's no need to go through the LL food chain and hold up the game. We have used this standard in our area, and it has cut protests by about 80%.

IMHO, too many LL umps (and admins) panic when they hear the p-word and get on the phone right away.

It gets silly. In a state game (which I did not work or witness), a protest went to Bristol. It was over a--don't gag now--batter who swung and missed at a pitch that hit him. PU didn't know what to do. Neither did his pards. Brain-addled site director had to get on the phone.

I have only (personally) seen two valid protests. One was over an illgeal pitcher (and was upheld). The other was over a misinterpretation of a rule (by me; I kicked it). I lucked out. Back in those days, there was not "protest must be heard before game continues" rule. The protesting team won the game, so there was no need to progress further.

Ace

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

There's a way around this, and I have used it.

Mgr. "We want to protest."

Me, "Please specify."

[Substiute your own here]: "That's an illegal pitch."

"No it isn't. This is a judgment call, ergo, no protest will be heard. Play on, MacDuff."

"But the rule book says ..."

"No protest shall be considered on a decision involving an umpire's judgment."

"I'm not happy with that."

"And I'm not happy that this taking so long. Find a seat and resume coahing."

Since the protest is not considered in the first place, there's no need to go through the LL food chain and hold up the game. We have used this standard in our area, and it has cut protests by about 80%.

IMHO, too many LL umps (and admins) panic when they hear the p-word and get on the phone right away.

It gets silly. In a state game (which I did not work or witness), a protest went to Bristol. It was over a--don't gag now--batter who swung and missed at a pitch that hit him. PU didn't know what to do. Neither did his pards. Brain-addled site director had to get on the phone.

I have only (personally) seen two valid protests. One was over an illgeal pitcher (and was upheld). The other was over a misinterpretation of a rule (by me; I kicked it). I lucked out. Back in those days, there was not "protest must be heard before game continues" rule. The protesting team won the game, so there was no need to progress further.

Ace

It may be effective in cutting down on frivolous protests, but it is not within the umpires' domain to make that call. You cannot be the judge when the rule is set up for you to be the defendant, regardless of your innocence.

Whether or not the issue being protested is a judgment or a rule interpretation is, itself, sometimes open to debate, and therefore the consistent instruction, from Little League all the way through professional baseball, is to accept the protest and follow the protest rules, even if you, the umpire, think it is a frivolous or "illegal" protest.

[Mountaineer]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

It may be effective in cutting down on frivolous protests, but it is not within the umpires' domain to make that call. You cannot be the judge when the rule is set up for you to be the defendant, regardless of your innocence.

Whether or not the issue being protested is a judgment or a rule interpretation is, itself, sometimes open to debate, and therefore the consistent instruction, from Little League all the way through professional baseball, is to accept the protest and follow the protest rules, even if you, the umpire, think it is a frivolous or "illegal" protest.

I don't totally agree with that - it has to be a protestable situation. If it's a judgement call, it is NOT a protestable situation - period. Illegal pitcher, not meeting MPR are protestable situations . . .