Can checked swing be a 'fourth out' appeal?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnnyg08

I...when in doubt on a sitch like this...it makes most sense to call strike 3 on the check swing so that would eliminate the appeal in most instances as your BU wouldn't take a strike away from you as the PU...

I don't follow this at all.

"When in doubt" PU should call whetever he'd call in any other situation -- the specific play of two outs and a runner stealing has no bearing on PU's call.

"Eliminate the appeal in most instances" -- if PU judges that the batter swung, it eliminates the appeal in all instances.

The mechanics are simple (well, simple to understand). Until PU asks for an appeal, it's a ball. BU makes the call on the bases. If there's then an appeal, rule on it.

It might get confusing for BU if the pitch is in the dirt and PU asks immediately (as he's supposed to.) Now, BU should rule on the swing immediately and be turning for the play at second, and must recognize that it's now a force play and be ready for a throw-back to first if R1 is not retired at second. That's a lot, but that's why BU gets paid the big bucks.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

I understand. However, I frequently work with guys who won't ask when BU is in the middle or if the batter is left handed.
I guess my question boils down to, how long do I as BU wait to make a call at second?

Your guys need to give back part of their game check. There is NO reason not to ask BU anytime, what position he is in is irrelevant. The BU can judge intent from anywhere. If the batter is LH and you are in "A"? Do the best you can with what you saw....if the teams want a better angle, they can pay for a U3.

I have banged out more than one batter from B and/or C, and I've never had a PU who was reluctant to ask me.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

It might get confusing for BU if the pitch is in the dirt and PU asks immediately (as he's supposed to.) Now, BU should rule on the swing immediately and be turning for the play at second, and must recognize that it's now a force play and be ready for a throw-back to first if R1 is not retired at second. That's a lot, but that's why BU gets paid the big bucks.

Wow! In this sitch, BU has made three decisions without a ball being batted! Hat's off to this guy, he's on top of it tonight!

Personally, I can see myself kicking this play all to he11!

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by LMan

Your guys need to give back part of their game check. There is NO reason not to ask BU anytime, what position he is in is irrelevant. The BU can judge intent from anywhere. If the batter is LH and you are in "A"? Do the best you can with what you saw....if the teams want a better angle, they can pay for a U3.

I have banged out more than one batter from B and/or C, and I've never had a PU who was reluctant to ask me.

I agree 100%! Many times these guy's cover checked swings in pre-game by saying, "If they ask me to come to you, just agree with me. If I come to you on my own gimme what you got." My ususal response is, "If you don't want my opinion, don't ask, if you ask, I'll give it to you."

[LMan]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Wow! In this sitch, BU has made three decisions without a ball being batted! Hat's off to this guy, he's on top of it tonight!

Personally, I can see myself kicking this play all to he11!

Heh. The other day I was in C, with R1, R2, no outs. Ball hit to F6, who swipes at R2 going to 3B:

"Safe!" (missed the tag)

then F6 tries to start a DP, throws to 2B:

"Out!"

then relay to 1B, not in time:

"Safe!"


...all in the space of ~3-4 seconds.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by LMan

Heh. The other day I was in C, with R1, R2, no outs. Ball hit to F6, who swipes at R2 going to 3B:

"Safe!" (missed the tag)

then F6 tries to start a DP, throws to 2B:

"Out!"

then relay to 1B, not in time:

"Safe!"


...all in the space of ~3-4 seconds.

But it all started with a batted ball

[mcrowder]

Add a wrinkle here - stealing R1, check swing, ball hits dirt, F2 fires to 2nd for the steal, but runner is safe. BR takes off, not knowing whether that was a strike or not, and F6 puts the ball in the stands, R1 awarded home.

Defense appeals the swing - yes, he went. The steal of 2nd is now, retroactively, a force play.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Add a wrinkle here - stealing R1, check swing, ball hits dirt, F2 fires to 2nd for the steal, but runner is safe. BR takes off, not knowing whether that was a strike or not, and F6 puts the ball in the stands, R1 awarded home.

Defense appeals the swing - yes, he went. The steal of 2nd is now, retroactively, a force play.

My head hurts...

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

What if PU has a reputation for not checking with BU on these types of appeals (I know that he should, but many here won't if BU is in B or C)?

What makes some umpires afraid to ask the BU for help when they are in the middle? It makes no difference where the BU is positioned, he's watching the pitch for just that purpose. Otherwise, he could just stand out there and pick the daisies.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

"If they ask me to come to you, just agree with me. If I come to you on my own gimme what you got."

Was this the guy who said this?

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Was this the guy who said this?

It wasn't him, but I'm sure they're related!

[Chukinrox]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

We DON'T all know this.

I can call a check swing just as well from B or C as I can from A or D. Saying otherwise just perpetuates this myth.

If you can stand on the third base side of a field and tell a coach that his batter definitely swung on a legitimately close check swing then if the coach knows anythign about baseball will be riding you... Theres an impossible angle.

[JJ]

R1, R2, two out, two strikes on the batter. Runners stealing on the pitch, which is a check swing in the dirt. PU calls "ball", catcher throws to third to try to retire the stealing R2. Third baseman misses the tag, but he is touching the bag when he takes the throw. Defense appeals the check swing, and the BU says "Yes, he went".
Where is the out recorded? And who leads off next inning? As soon as it became a dropped third strike, it became a force at third base, and the third baseman WAS touching the base when he took the throw....hmmm....

I love this game -
JJ

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by Chukinrox

If you can stand on the third base side of a field and tell a coach that his batter definitely swung on a legitimately close check swing then if the coach knows anythign about baseball will be riding you... Theres an impossible angle.

If you can stand on the third base side of a field and not be able to tell a coach that his better offered on a legitimately close check swing, then you are looking for the wrong evidence.

[Tim C]

"If you can stand on the third base side of a field and tell a coach that his batter definitely swung on a legitimately close check swing then if the coach knows anythign about baseball will be riding you... Theres an impossible angle."

As I have intoned many, many times:

People that defend this logic either don't understand the checked/unchecked swing rule or do not have the guts to make a tough call.

A well trained umpire can easily make this call from either "B" or "C".

Regards,