Mechanics At First Base

[Blue37]

Ground ball to third. Batter is speedy. He stretches hard on his last step and his foot hits a split second before the ball arrives. The problem is, it hits the ground a couple of inches in front of the bag, or a couple of inches past the bag. He does not touch the bag.

What are the proper mechanics for these situations? Are they different if he misses the bag short or long?

[pdxblue]

If he beats the throw, you do like you would do had he touched the base and you signal safe. Then you wait for the appeal. If the defense appeals the missed bag, then you call him out.

Yeah, it will create a crapstorm with the offensive team coach, but that is simply the way it is supposed to be done regardless.

No different if he misses short of long. It is the same call. And by the way, you can apply this to any force play at any base.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

If he beats the throw, you do like you would do had he touched the base and you signal safe. Then you wait for the appeal. If the defense appeals the missed bag, then you call him out.

Yeah, it will create a crapstorm with the offensive team coach, but that is simply the way it is supposed to be done regardless.

No different if he misses short of long. It is the same call. And by the way, you can apply this to any force play at any base.

If he misses short, he's out. He hasn't reached/passed the base.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

If he misses short, he's out. He hasn't reached/passed the base.

And, by popular interpretation, he hasn't passed the base until the trailing foot has passed the base.

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

If he misses short, he's out. He hasn't reached/passed the base.

If he gets his body over the bag before the throw gets there, "short or long" doesn't matter a lick. He still missed the bag, and you still signal safe.

[pdxblue]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

And, by popular interpretation, he hasn't passed the base until the trailing foot has passed the base.

Show me a "offcial interpretation" for that please.

[mcrowder]

Actually, by popular interpretation, if the lead foot passes the base, and THEN the ball arrives, the runner is safe pending appeal. If the foot lands SHORT, then I'm going by the body. In neither case are we going by the trail foot.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

If he gets his body over the bag before the throw gets there, "short or long" doesn't matter a lick. He still missed the bag, and you still signal safe.

Show me an official interpretation for this, please.

[UmpJM]

While I am NOT suggesting that this is an "Official Interpretation", here is what Bob Pariseau had to say on the question in a post on another board:

An often asked question is just what it means for BR to "beat the throw" in this case. The Rule of Thumb is that if BR actually TOUCHES 1B, then the Touch of 1B must beat the Catch and Tag for BR to be Safe. But if BR *MISSES* 1B, then the judgment that BR is, nevertheless, Safe is based on when BR's REAR FOOT PASSES 1B. If BR's Rear Foot is not yet past 1B (albeit still in the air) when the throw arrives and F3 makes the Tag of 1B, then BR is judged Out according to this Rule of Thumb. For BR to be judged Safe under this Rule of Thumb, even though having missed the bag, his trail foot must be PAST 1B (albeit possibly still in the air) when the throw arrives and the late Tag of 1B is made

So, following this Rule of Thumb, if BR misses 1B but is still in the act of passing 1B when the throw arrives (and the Tag of 1B is made) you will judge BR Out. But if BR has clearly passed 1B -- in the sense that he not only "reached" it with his lead foot prior to the throw arriving but that also his TRAIL FOOT has passed the bag at least in the air -- then you will call him Safe even though he has not yet touched 1B. He clearly beat the throw to the bag and the defense has not yet made an unmistakeable Appeal.
--Bob

Personally, this interpretation makes eminent sense to me for two reasons:

1. You don't know whether the batter has in fact "missed" the base until his trail foot is passed it - if he "drags" that trail foot and manages to touch the base, it's going to look a little silly to have ruled him SAFE as soon as his lead foot crossed the base - especially if F3 makes a legal tag of 1B prior to the trail foot touching 1B.

2. The BR has not PASSED 1B until ALL of him has passed 1B.

The specifics of the question are not explicitly and unambiguously addressed in JEA, J/R, the MLBUM, the BRD, or the text of the official rules.

JM

[Tim C]

My head hurts!

If a player's foot lands "short" and the ball is caught and F3 is touching the base isn't the b/r "out?"

If seems this makes no difference iffin the base is missed or not.

The runner has not attained the base therefore he is simply "out" or am I missing something?

Every guy we call out at first is called out because he is "short" of the base, right? If we didn't call these guys "out" wouldn't you have a situation (which we often see) that when a b/r is obviously out he runs through the base and does not touch it . . . ?

You only signal "safe" if the b/r misses the base and he has either beat the throw of F3 has been pulled off the bag.

The only real question here seems to be: "when does after" occur.

Am I misunderstanding this situation?

Regards,

[David B]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

While I am NOT suggesting that this is an "Official Interpretation", here is what Bob Pariseau had to say on the question in a post on another board:
Personally, this interpretation makes eminent sense to me for two reasons:

1. You don't know whether the batter has in fact "missed" the base until his trail foot is passed it - if he "drags" that trail foot and manages to touch the base, it's going to look a little silly to have ruled him SAFE as soon as his lead foot crossed the base - especially if F3 makes a legal tag of 1B prior to the trail foot touching 1B.

2. The BR has not PASSED 1B until ALL of him has passed 1B.

The specifics of the question are not explicitly and unambiguously addressed in JEA, J/R, the MLBUM, the BRD, or the text of the official rules.

JM

Thanks Coach, this makes a lot of sense.

It makes no sense to call a runner safe who has not obtained first or passed by first. As stated in your post, the rear foot could touch the bag.

And common sense tells me as an umpire, we aren't going to call a runner safe until we know for certain he is safe.

I'm not an umpire who likes to have to change calls unless absolutely necessary. Waiting to be certain has its advantages on this type of play.

Thanks
David

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by pdxblue

Show me a "offcial interpretation" for that please.

Did you mean: "official interpretation"

[DG]

Originally Posted by Tim C

My head hurts!

If a player's foot lands "short" and the ball is caught and F3 is touching the base isn't the b/r "out?"

If seems this makes no difference iffin the base is missed or not.

The runner has not attained the base therefore he is simply "out" or am I missing something?

Every guy we call out at first is called out because he is "short" of the base, right? If we didn't call these guys "out" wouldn't you have a situation (which we often see) that when a b/r is obviously out he runs through the base and does not touch it . . . ?

You only signal "safe" if the b/r misses the base and he has either beat the throw of F3 has been pulled off the bag.

The only real question here seems to be: "when does after" occur.

Am I misunderstanding this situation?

Regards,

I think the B-R could miss the front of the base with his lead foot, and be completely over or beyond when the ball arrives, thus "beating" the throw. At least that is how I understand the situation.

I just don't see runners miss 1B that often (very rare) on bangers.

[LakeErieUmp]

Just as an FYI - This situation is specifically covered in FED. In the Case Book (I think 8.3.3 but I'm not sure cause I don't have it with me) the FED explanation is that if a runner completely misses the bag and the fielder touches the bag at any time before the runner turns to come back to the base it's an OUT. FED clearly states in the explanation that the act of touching the base is its own appeal and nothing further is necessarily (e.g. fielder does not have to bring the umpire's attention to the touch, etc.)
Makes the call "easy" (for FED games).

[Tim C]

According to Elliot Hopkins the play you have referenced is in error.

The NFHS has commented that it is left over from the period when "accidential appeals" were recognized by the NFHS.

Actually this is another change that I requested when I was asked to offer rules changes for 2007.

I was told that it will take about two more years before this play is re-written or eliminated.

Regards,