9-10 BBALL...right call?

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Ok let me lay the entire situation out for you. Umps: HP: George 1st: Mac 2nd: Tim 3rd: me

Were on a 4 man crew, were on the 60' Diamond, 9-10 LL allstars. We have a runner on 1st. Ball is blooped to the outfield. Runner from 1st runs and ends up rounding 3rd. But while hes running, the batter is running around 2nd by this time....and boom! smacks right into the Shortstop. Runner is heading for home...but gets confused by the yelling 3rd base coach and heads back to 3rd I waiting at 3rd also saw it. Tim points obstruction (even though he didnt see anything) and we send the runner on third to home (feeling that if the obstuction wouldnt have happened, he wouldnt have stopped) and send the obstructed runner to third. Sound right?

Dan

[TussAgee11]

Quasi right.

There are two types of obstruction, a play on the runner obstructed, and no play. Here there was no play on the runner.

With "no play" obstruction, you have a delayed dead ball. (stick your left fist out to the side, point at the obstruction with your right hand and yell "that's obstruction". Let the play finish.

After the play, you need to award bases which, in your judgement, nullifies the act of obstruction.

It sounds to me like this play was not allowed to be finished. Without allowing it to finish, the wrong call was made, if that happened.

If it did happen, I'd have to know where everyone ended up after the play to determine whether or not you were correct (aside from your judgement of where runners would have been had the obstruction not occured, you were there I was not).

Also, you can't give awards based off a 3rd base coach yelling and an umpire yelling "that's obstruction" if it sends runner's back to their bases confused. They were not obstructed with by any fielder.

Did you let the play finish?

[TussAgee11]

One more thing.

The LL rulebook is the worst piece of literature since Mick Foley's book Have a Nice Day. Just thought I'd throw that in there, as I sifted through to reread the rule on obstruction, and see if there was anything that pertained to your particular situation.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

We let the play finish, then we sent them over one base. the coach was hollering something at third...which the runner on third was confused by the 3rd base coach yelling after the collision and headed back to third...but the batter/runner was around 2nd heading to 3rd when he slammed into the SS. The batter/runner woulda got to third meaning that the runner on third woulda went home. It was a doosey. But the 4 of us felt it was the fair thing to do; putting them on the bases they woulda got to if no obstuction would have occurred..

[LLPA13UmpDan]

and yes, LL rulings can be stupid/ pointless. One thing i hate about it.

[TussAgee11]

One problem I have with this is that you are giving an award to a runner who was NOT obstructed with.

Lets say BR was obstructed between 1st and 2nd. Runner runs back to third. You will not give him home in this scenario, even though if the obstruction had not occured, he would have obtained it.

Now, with no play obstruction, the LL rulebook says nothing about having to give a base. In fact it even notes this by saying "the umpire shall impose any penalties, if any, should be given to nullify the act of obstruction". You don't have to give him anything.

Yes, he would have obtained third, but if he had he would have been greeted by another runner, because as far as I'm concerned that runner went back to third on his own. For rule purposes, he was not obstructed with and can not be determined to have been obstructed with.

I'm relatively unexperienced myself as an umpire, so I'll leave this one for the big boys.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Yeah, this one is a doosey. Never seen this happen. I went with the rule, I put runners on bags accordingly to where they woulda reached, in the umpires judgement, if no obstruction occured.

[mattmets]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Ok let me lay the entire situation out for you. Umps: HP: George 1st: Mac 2nd: Tim 3rd: me

Were on a 4 man crew, were on the 60' Diamond, 9-10 LL allstars. We have a runner on 1st. Ball is blooped to the outfield. Runner from 1st runs and ends up rounding 3rd. But while hes running, the batter is running around 2nd by this time....and boom! smacks right into the Shortstop. Runner is heading for home...but gets confused by the yelling 3rd base coach and heads back to 3rd I waiting at 3rd also saw it. Tim points obstruction (even though he didnt see anything) and we send the runner on third to home (feeling that if the obstuction wouldnt have happened, he wouldnt have stopped) and send the obstructed runner to third. Sound right?

Dan

My biggest problem is that you had 4 guys working on a 60 ft field. Sounds like you got the play right but good God, 4 guys on a small field....God bless you.

[LLPA13UmpDan]

Originally Posted by mattmets

My biggest problem is that you had 4 guys working on a 60 ft field. Sounds like you got the play right but good God, 4 guys on a small field....God bless you.

Always 4 guys. if u think we're bad LLWS uses 6...

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Always 4 guys. if u think we're bad LLWS uses 6...

We never do LL around here (Central Mass.) with more than two umpires, unless it is a district title game.

But, we also get paid to do LL games.




Doug

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Runner from 1st runs and ends up rounding 3rd. But while hes running, the batter is running around 2nd by this time....and boom! smacks right into the Shortstop. Runner is heading for home...but gets confused by the yelling 3rd base coach and heads back to 3rd I waiting at 3rd also saw it. Tim points obstruction (even though he didnt see anything) and we send the runner on third to home (feeling that if the obstuction wouldnt have happened, he wouldnt have stopped) and send the obstructed runner to third. Sound right?

HTBT. I might not have any award at all. Offensive team's yelling, etc. has no bearing on play. Am I positive B1 would have made it to third on this play? Not from what was given. Was the play killed? Where did defense throw the rock?

When (type B) obstructed runners retreat after the actual OBS, it doesn't help if I think there mightbe an award. I want to see the obstructed runner try for the next base.

Dave, if you or anyone else has some Net discussion on this, bring it on.

Why award R1 home when he backpedaled on his own? It is not anyone's fault but the offense's if they reactly in wacky fashion to a properly delivered delayed OBS call.

Ace

[TussAgee11]

Just what I was saying before, Ace. I have problems awarding home here to a runner for just being silly by running back to third.

If he ran back to third, then wouldn't R1 have to go back to second (imagining no Obstruction occured). Therefore, wouldn't putting runners at 2nd and 3rd be the best way to place runners to nullify the act?

Just because lil Johnny was confused rounding third should NOT result in him scoring on this play, IMO.

More info would help though, as Ace has requested.

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by LLPA13UmpDan

Ok let me lay the entire situation out for you. Umps: HP: George 1st: Mac 2nd: Tim 3rd: me

Were on a 4 man crew, were on the 60' Diamond, 9-10 LL allstars. We have a runner on 1st. Ball is blooped to the outfield. Runner from 1st runs and ends up rounding 3rd. But while hes running, the batter is running around 2nd by this time....and boom! smacks right into the Shortstop. Runner is heading for home...but gets confused by the yelling 3rd base coach and heads back to 3rd I waiting at 3rd also saw it. Tim points obstruction (even though he didnt see anything) and we send the runner on third to home (feeling that if the obstuction wouldnt have happened, he wouldnt have stopped) and send the obstructed runner to third. Sound right?

Dan

According to Post #4, the above play was allowed to finish. The determination of the umpiring crew was that the BR was obstructed by SS after rounding 2B. They also determined that had no obstruction occurred, the BR would have been safe at 3B. So, they award BR third base to penalize the defense for the obstruction, which forces the runner on third to score.

Sounds like a good call to me with the information provided.



Doug

[TussAgee11]

Originally Posted by Carbide Keyman

According to Post #4, the above play was allowed to finish. The determination of the umpiring crew was that the BR was obstructed by SS after rounding 2B. They also determined that had no obstruction occurred, the BR would have been safe at 3B. So, they award BR third base to penalize the defense for the obstruction, which forces the runner on third to score.

Sounds like a good call to me with the information provided.



Doug

Yes but he would have been safe at 3B with another runner standing there to greet him.

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

Yes but he would have been safe at 3B with another runner standing there to greet him.

The determination was that the runner had been obstructed. BR already had possession of second base. The indication was that the runner rounding third only came back due to the coach's confusion of the obstruction "call".

To nullify the obstruction, IMHO, the award of third to the BR is correct. If there was no obstruction to begin with, the runner would not have returned to third and the BR would have achieved third. He is not receiving any advantage, just what he would have gained had no obstruction occurred.

With the information at hand, I think it was a sound call.




Doug