LL only--7.13 miasma

[aceholleran]

R1, R3. R3 takes a legal lead after pitch. Ball is returned to F1. R3 moves back toward sack, then darts toward home again to draw a throw.

F1 is having none of it. He and F2 get ready for the pitch. F1 is on the slab, and R3 is standing a couple of feet off the base, both feet planted, making no move to return.

As F1 winds up, R3 returns to the pad, and stays there until B1 hits an infield grounder which is muffed.

When the dust clears, R3 has scored, R1 is on third and B1 is safe at first.

Now, you tell me what I did. I'll check for responses and tell you the outcome later today or tomorrow.

Ace in CT

[Rich Ives]

Flag R3 for leaving early.

Because the ball was hit within the infield, the "poof" rule comes into effect.

R3 removed from bases, R2 to 3rd, R1 to 2B, B-R to 1B.

No run scores.


Try a hard one next time.

[mick]

Originally Posted by aceholleran

R1, R3. R3 takes a legal lead after pitch. Ball is returned to F1. R3 moves back toward sack, then darts toward home again to draw a throw.

F1 is having none of it. He and F2 get ready for the pitch. F1 is on the slab, and R3 is standing a couple of feet off the base, both feet planted, making no move to return.

As F1 winds up, R3 returns to the pad, and stays there until B1 hits an infield grounder which is muffed.

When the dust clears, R3 has scored, R1 is on third and B1 is safe at first.

Now, you tell me what I did. I'll check for responses and tell you the outcome later today or tomorrow.

Ace in CT

From here I see three options.

1. You judged the runner left early and ended up with R3, R2, and R1.
2. You judged the runner merely returned late and ended up with R3, R1 and a run scored. (But, you didn't do that, or you wouldn't have posted, I'm guessing.)
3. You called Williamsport for a ruling on another poorly written rule. (You probably didn't do that either.)

So, I pick door #1.
mick

[Striker991]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Flag R3 for leaving early.

Because the ball was hit within the infield, the "poof" rule comes into effect.

R3 removed from bases, R2 to 3rd, R1 to 2B, B-R to 1B.

No run scores.


Try a hard one next time.

Ummm..Rich? Looks like your "poof" was R2 appearing from nowhere...

Still, no run scores on R3 leaving early, bases now loaded.

[mick]

Originally Posted by Striker991

Ummm..Rich? Looks like your "poof" was R2 appearing from nowhere...

[kylejt]

Well, I hope you did nothing on this play.

Was R3 in contact with the bag when the pitch reached the batter? If yes, no flag. If no, drop the flag.

It's as simple as that folks.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Well, I hope you did nothing on this play.

Was R3 in contact with the bag when the pitch reached the batter? If yes, no flag. If no, drop the flag.

It's as simple as that folks.

Kyle:

The runner has to be in contact with the base at the time the ball is pitched or he's violated 7.13. In fact, a literal interpretation of 7.13 would suggest he needs to be back in contact as soon as the battery is set.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Striker991

Ummm..Rich? Looks like your "poof" was R2 appearing from nowhere...

Well, they say the poof is in the pudding!

[aceholleran]

Originally Posted by mick

From here I see three options.

1. You judged the runner left early and ended up with R3, R2, and R1.
2. You judged the runner merely returned late and ended up with R3, R1 and a run scored. (But, you didn't do that, or you wouldn't have posted, I'm guessing.)
3. You called Williamsport for a ruling on another poorly written rule. (You probably didn't do that either.)

So, I pick door #1.
mick

.. and I picked door #1.

I have always used this interp. Pitcher ready + beginning his motion + runner off bag = hanky.

Sold it without too much tension, especially after ensuing batter hit a grand salami.

Ace

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

Flag R3 for leaving early.

Because the ball was hit within the infield, the "poof" rule comes into effect.

R3 removed from bases, R2 to 3rd, R1 to 2B, B-R to 1B.

No run scores.

Try a hard one next time.

Rich... is this the Reverse Poof effect, where you are allowed to invent a runner and add him to the equation? Who the heck is R2?

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Rich... is this the Reverse Poof effect, where you are allowed to invent a runner and add him to the equation? Who the heck is R2?

No poof needed, as we have room for the BR. If the bases had been loaded, then poof comes into effect.

Bases loaded, let's play

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Kyle:

The runner has to be in contact with the base at the time the ball is pitched or he's violated 7.13. In fact, a literal interpretation of 7.13 would suggest he needs to be back in contact as soon as the battery is set.


Tim.

The literal wording of 7.13 can be misapplied to mean a whole lot. The intention is to keep the runners from getting a head start. Period. If a pitcher sees a runner walking back to the back, and starts his motion, it's nothing. The runner can't leave before the pitch reaches the batter. Having the battery set only applies if the runner decides to take off. If he's not in contact during the motion, but gets back before the ball reaches the batter, we're in compliance with the letter, and the intent of the rule.

Again, JMHO and YMMV.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by kylejt

The literal wording of 7.13 can be misapplied to mean a whole lot. The intention is to keep the runners from getting a head start. Period. If a pitcher sees a runner walking back to the back, and starts his motion, it's nothing. The runner can't leave before the pitch reaches the batter. Having the battery set only applies if the runner decides to take off. If he's not in contact during the motion, but gets back before the ball reaches the batter, we're in compliance with the letter, and the intent of the rule.

Again, JMHO and YMMV.

Try getting this one passed a protest committee. The rule is abundantly clear that the runner must be on the bag at the time the pitcher is ready to deliver the ball. There's no wiggle room here. If he's returning when the ball is delivered he's in violation. I was of the same opinion that you are until Andy Konyar responded to an e-mail I sent him last Summer. He set me straight in a hurry.


Tim.

[kylejt]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Try getting this one passed a protest committee. The rule is abundantly clear that the runner must be on the bag at the time the pitcher is ready to deliver the ball. There's no wiggle room here. If he's returning when the ball is delivered he's in violation. I was of the same opinion that you are until Andy Konyar responded to an e-mail I sent him last Summer. He set me straight in a hurry.


Tim.

Using the book, or Andys words, you can drop the flag if a runner raises his foot off the bag at any time between when the catcher faces the pitcher, to when the pitch reaches the batter.

I choose not enforce that interpretation, but there's enough fuzziness in the wording for us all to be right. Thus the real problem.

As you can probably tell, I don't lock-step to everything that Andy sez.


Kyle

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by kylejt

Using the book, or Andys words, you can drop the flag if a runner raises his foot off the bag at any time between when the catcher faces the pitcher, to when the pitch reaches the batter.

I choose not enforce that interpretation, but there's enough fuzziness in the wording for us all to be right. Thus the real problem.

As you can probably tell, I don't lock-step to everything that Andy sez.


Kyle

Thats right. Why go by the book or apply the rules the way the UIC for the largest national youth baseball organization suggests when you can make your own stuff up. Give me a break, Kyle. It's no wonder why other umpires call all LL umpires Smitties.


Tim.