Catch? Out?

[ctblu40]

Look at the comment attached to rule 2-
Rule 2.00 (Catch) Comment: A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball.

There are many problems with the official rules, but this one seems to be one such problem that everyone I've ever talked to agrees upon.

I'm failing to understand where you're coming from with thi PWL. I'm not trying to be a smarta$$, but help me understand your logic...

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

Hopefully, I'm talking to to some one who can look at things in a little different perspective. Just leave the rule to the side for a minute. If a ball is hit in fair ground you do not need the definition of a catch to advance, only a touch is required. If the ball is hit into foul territory, a fielder may bobble it five times and then drop it and no advance will take place. You need a legal catch to advance. Now 7.08(d) refers that a fair or foul ball be caught legally.

I have offered a solution to anyone that wants to take me up on the offer. I have spoken to Mr. Evans on this subject and this is answer he gave me. He stated that only a touch is required in fair territory, but a catch is required in foul territory. Never was a first touch brought up in the conversation, but he did imply that the rule was written incorrectly. So to me a definition of catch must be meet before a runner can legally tag when a play is being made on him in foul territory.

I finally see where you're coming from. What you've been trying to say is that on a foul fly ball it's a moot point as to whether or not the runner can advance on first touch if the ball is dropped. Simply put it's a foul ball dead ball. However, the play we've been discussing has the ball being legally caught, although it's been caught by a second fielder over foul territory where the ball remains live and in play. This means that the defintion of a legal catch has to be looked at to make a proper ruling. And we all know that on a legal catch the runner can advance on first contact.


Tim.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by PWL

Hopefully, I'm talking to to some one who can look at things in a little different perspective. Just leave the rule to the side for a minute. If a ball is hit in fair ground you do not need the definition of a catch to advance, only a touch is required. If the ball is hit into foul territory, a fielder may bobble it five times and then drop it and no advance will take place. You need a legal catch to advance. Now 7.08(d) refers that a fair or foul ball be caught legally.

I have offered a solution to anyone that wants to take me up on the offer. I have spoken to Mr. Evans on this subject and this is answer he gave me. He stated that only a touch is required in fair territory, but a catch is required in foul territory. Never was a first touch brought up in the conversation, but he did imply that the rule was written incorrectly. So to me a definition of catch must be meet before a runner can legally tag when a play is being made on him in foul territory.

Okay, I think I'm starting to see the logic here... perhaps there are 4 ideas that need to be explored in parallel:

1. When is a runner called out for not properly retouching after a batted ball is caught in flight?

2. The definition of a catch.

3. The definition of "in flight."

4. When does a batted ball become fair (or foul)?

Okay... I think I'm starting to understand your logic a little more. Perhaps there are 3 ideas/definitions we need to explore with this:
1. When is a player out for not properly retouching after a batted ball is caught in flight.

[NFump]

Hook, line and sinker. Nice recovery though. Excellent twist.

[BRump]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

1. When is a player out for not properly retouching after a batted ball is caught in flight.

Only on appeal.

Back to the fair/foul argument...I think I see where PWL is making his case, that runners can only advance on a fly ball in foul territory when legally caught, and that runners can only advance on a fly ball in fair territory once it touches a fielder. Everyone else is saying a similar thing, just with different words.

Obviously, if the a fielder touches a fly ball over fair territory the runners can leave at the point and advance. If the ball is in foul territory, then the runners can only advance if the ball is legally caught, otherwise it's a fould ball and the runners must return.

This seems to be the hang-up. The runners can leave their base as soon as the ball is touched by a fielder no matter where the ball is, but cannot advance to the next base unless the ball is in fair territory (catch/no catch), or is legally caught in foul territory.

[LakeErieUmp]

No, that's not what the rule means! A runner can only advance on a foul ball that is "legally caught" to differntiate it from a foul ball that is touched and drops to the ground! There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING, in the rule that even remotely suggests a runner cannot leave his BASE until a foul is caught. If it's bobbled dropped, he returns. If it's bobbled and caught, he heads-up has a new base.
Easy call.