God, the First Amendment and the Umpire

[BlueLawyer]

I have to say, I don't know what gets a thread locked from time to time.

In the midst of reading what I consider to have been a fascinating thread that began with Ozzie Guillen's "apology" and ended with a lively, but mostly civil, debate on the religious/social/political/legal roots of this country, said thread was locked.

Just when I wanted to comment (go figure).

So, administrators, moderators, and other royalty of this board, if you care to comment, I'd love to know what will get a thread shut down. If it's nothing more than your subjective judgment, that's fine, I'd just like to know.

Strikes and outs!

[BlueLawyer]

But as far as name calling on this board goes, that thread was mild. And yeah, it was way off in left field, but so are a lot of things on this board.

So, yeah, pulling the thread would have been ok- your thread, your pull. But I don't know what criteria the mods use when deciding to shut it down.

Here's a general musing from me. Most of us umpire because we love baseball. I know that's why I do it. I get a little romantic and misty when I really think about it. Baseball is now and always has been the sport in America that most intersects with society at large. Racism, sexism, drug abuse, spousal abuse, religion, labor strife, anti-Semitism- all of these issues have been played out to a greater or lesser extent in my lifetime being played out in the microcosm that is baseball. So is a topic off limits because it's not baseball? Not umpiring?

Here's one from my basketball career. 10 years ago or so I dumped a kid in a high school game- no "T", no warning, for calling another kid the N-word. Both kids, by the way, were African American. When the coach asked me what happened, I told him. He tried alternately to argue to me that it couldn't be racism because both kids were black and that that's just the way kids on the street talk to each other. I told him that that word had no place in a high school gym, and his players- no matter what their color- had better learn that.

Was I right? Was I wrong? Did I overreact? Would I do the same thing today? All debatable. And all implicate the larger societal issues of the day- then and now. So is that an appropriate topic for this board? That's what I'm trying to figure out here.

Strikes and outs!

[3appleshigh]

Since I didn't get to respond to you, I felt I would here.

I NEVER called you A Religious Zealot. I simply put that is One particular group of people that believe Gay people are sinful. Now you say you never said they were sinful.

"and the majority of those people think that homosexuality is sinful. Being referred to as gay is offensive to the majority of heterosexuals, and has nothing to do with homophobia, a word that was invented by the far-left to excuse homosexual behavior, and to attempt to normalize it."

You see I think you have taken your belief structure and inexplicably thrown that on the "Majority" of people. I think you may truly wish that what you say is true. But you are incorrect. The Majority of people DO NOT CARE!!!. And most people have no issue being called GAY. I think the maroity of Straight people think being hit on by someone who is gay is a little creapy maybe even offensive, but name calling is nothing. Homophobia is a term used to describe a fear of gay people. It is of course created by the FAR-left, not just people with a different opinion, the ever so scary FAR Left. After seeing your tirade, I Say you reside on the FAR right. The word was made up by people in the middle.

"This being a Christian founded nation (fact, just do the research and don't try to argue the point) and that the majority of people in the US consider themselves Christian in some capacity, even though many do not practice their faith, it goes to reason that the majority of people in the US think that the practice of homosexual acts is a sin. It is not so-called "Religous Zealots" who feel this way. It is your mainstream, run-of-the-mill Christian. 87% of the people in the US consider themselves either Jewish or Christian (Catholic or Protestant)."

In my world 89.56% of people believe made up statistics. Here from Adherents.com is the USA religious make-up.
Christianity 76.5% +5%
Nonreligious/Secular 13.2% +110%
Judaism 3,1.3% -10%
Islam 527,000 0.5% +109%
Buddhism 0.5% +170%
Agnostic 0.5% -16%
Atheist 0.4%
Hinduism 0.4% +237%
Unitarian Universalist 0.3% +25%
Wiccan/Pagan/Druid 0.1%
Spiritualist 0.05%
Native American Religion 0.05% +119%
Baha'i 0.04% +200%
New Age 0.03% +240%
Sikhism 0.03% +338%
Scientology 0.02% +22%
Humanist 0.02% +69%
Deity (Deist) 0.02% +717%
Taoist 0.02% +74%
Eckankar 0.01% +44%

I would like to draw your attention to the increse in Nonreligious/Secular up 110 % i'm thinking the Christian's are now stating no religion a lot more often that what ever religion they often throw down although they don't practice. Personally I say Anglican at that spot, but haven't seen a church in FAR TOO LONG.
Now I would say using the actual Stats 76.5% are christian, of that MANY are non practicing and many probably do not hold firm to all beliefs of the Church. In fact I would say that a good 80-85% of Gay people I know probably write down some form of Christianity. I'm thinking at least some of those Don't hold firm to the Sinful nature of homosexuality.

"You can believe whatever you want, but the Bible, which is the best selling book of all time BTW, of which I believe everything from the Table of Contents to the Maps, says that God loves the sinner but hates the sin. God loves homosexuals (and all mankind), but He abhorrs homosexuality. It is an abomination unto The Lord, and nothing you can rationalize it away with will change that fact."

Now in regard to the best selling book of all time, THE Bible certainly is, therefore what ever is written inside MUST BE THE TRUTH! Is that the case? because I got some issues with some others on the the top 10 list as a book to follow and model ones life around.
1.The Bible
2.Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung (Little Red Book)
3.American Spelling Book by Noah Webster
4.The Guinness Book of Records
5.The McGuffey Readers by William Holmes McGuffey
6.A Message to Garcia by Elbert Hubbard
7.The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child Care by Dr. Benjamin Spock
8.World Almanac
9.The Valley of the Dolls by Jacqueline Susann
10.In His Steps: "What Would Jesus Do?" by Rev. Charles Monroe Sheldon

I hope some start getting Valley of the Dolls going as a way of life, I would love that. And that Little Red Book, has done wonders for the Chinese. Personally, I think the BIBLE is the BEST and most facinating BOOK OF FICTION ever written. It is a book of lessons, like Aesop's Fables, but a lot Scarier.

lastly

"I took offense to a remark referring to "religous zealots" which personally insulted my religous beliefs"

Do you think this matters more than what your comments (See your original Quote in this response) may have made Gay people Feel?? Or do only your feelings matter? Also I find it funny that although I didn't refer to you as a Religious Zealot, You state here that you are. And are somehow offended by it? That is the Religious beliefs you are refering to right - Religious Zealot beliefs?

Personally I Took offense to being LUMPED into your Religious Beliefs. Please from now on make comments based on YOU and YOUR beliefs, don't lump anyone else in and don't speak for others.

[UmpJM]

Ummm,

Uh-oh.

JM

[3appleshigh]

LOL
Coach that was funny.

LOL

[UMP25]

Steve, I'm a Christian, and I don't believe every single word in the Bible. In fact, at a Catholic high school we were taught much of the Bible was told via stories and parables and that not all of it was literal. This doesn't diminish my faith one bit, either.

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Are you still a Catholic? That is a distinct Catholic viewpoint.

It's not a viewpoint exclusive to Catholicism, believe me.

Catholics, for example, feel that the Apocalypse, what Christians call the book of Revelation, is not relevant in present day, but actually was fulfilled in 70 A.D.

I don't know where you learned about Catholicism, but I assure you, that is NOT the teachings of Roman Catholicism.

Catholicism and Christianity, while related, are two distinct faiths.

Huh? Catholicism IS part of Christianity. Roman Catholicism is but one of many denominations of the Christian faith. A Catholic = a Christian, nothing less.

[BlueLawyer]

I just thought I would remind us why I started the post- I want a moderator to explain what is or is not taboo and why. And like I said, if it's just the whim of the moderator who reads it, that's ok with me, I'd just like to know.

Steve, I have to say that I have agreed with you as much as not in my two months on this board. But I would find someone telling me that I was not Christian much more offensive than being told I was a "fag".

For the record, I am a Methodist and a straight man.

I digress. Telling a Catholic he is not a Christian crosses the line, in my view. I suppose how you define "Christian" is the key point.

But what is more important is how he defines Christian. If he believes Jesus Christ is God made flesh sent to die, rise and thereby save him from his sin, I'd say he qualifies. Most Catholics I know, although I disagree with them on other key theological points, hold these tenents of faith as immutable, just like I suspect you and I know I do.

In another time and in another place, I could tell you why I'm not a fundamentalist, and why I find non-fundamentalism completely compatible with Christ and His ministry. Again, another time and another place.

Anyway- this thread was fun while it lasted.

Wasn't that minor league manager a complete jackass?

Strikes and outs!

[SanDiegoSteve]

I'm not going to debate what's what and who's who. You are saying that you were taught in Catholic school that the the Bible is full of untrue stories and parables, and I am saying that Evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals, and most other Christian denominations do not hold this view. We take the Bible at its Word.

My first wife was a Catholic. My current wife's family consists of mostly Catholics (Sicilian family), although most have renounced Catholicism and became born again Christians, as they never even opened their Bibles while Catholics. I have been to many masses over the years, celebrated the Eucharist, and studied the religion quite a bit, so I do know what I'm talking about.

For entertainment and historical purposes, I read some of the books that the Catholic Church includes as canonical, but are not recognized as such by the Protestant Bible. I love reading 1st and 2nd Maccabes, Tobit, and Wisdom, for example. They are not included in the Torah because they were not considered inspired words of God, but were historically accurate and significant.

I also study the vast differences between Catholicism and Christianity. We love our Catholic brethren, but the differences in how we worship are like night and day.

I suggest reading "The Signs of The Coming of Christ" by Gary Frazier to give you an idea of what is going on behind the scenes at the Vatican, and with the Catholic Church's attempt at a "one-world religion," with tolerance for just about everyone. It is not Catholics that we have a problem with, it is the leadership at the top levels which most Catholics and other Christians are completely naive about.

And yes, the book of Revelation is considered "symbolic only" by the Catholic Church, although many are changing their viewpoint on this of late. It says so right in the Catholic Bible sitting beside me. In your Catholic Bible, refer to the Introduction to The Revalation to John, in the first five paragraphs especially, where it tells us that the book cannot be adaquately understood except for historical background, and that it applies to the Roman persecution of the early church. This view is only held by Catholics and the Orthodox Churches, not the Protestant denominations.

Here are some places which discuss the differences between Catholicism and mainstream Christianity:

http://christianprogress.com/12.htm

Please read this one for sure!:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_capr.htm

And this one for even more clarity:

http://www.raleighccc.org/HarvestJou...ristianity.htm

Pay particular attention to the conclusion of the above article.

By the way, I am one of the Christians that feel we are all brothers working for the common good, when you come to that one!

[GarthB]

Someone, please, close this thread. Please.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Just go read something else. Just good old American freedom of speech goin' on here.

You apparently are as familiar with the U.S. Constitution as you are with Catholicism. You are protected from the the government infringing on your speech, not from the owners of an internet site, or your wife, or your boss or me.


Dear Moderators....please close this thread.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Are you sure you're a Christian? Because you sure are un-Christian-like.

I am very familiar with both, thank you Mr. Rhodes Scholar.

[SanDiegoSteve]

What, do the moderators do whatever Garthy says? How sweet!

[UMP25]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

My first wife was a Catholic. My current wife's family consists of mostly Catholics (Sicilian family), although most have renounced Catholicism and became born again Christians, as they never even opened their Bibles while Catholics. I have been to many masses over the years, celebrated the Eucharist, and studied the religion quite a bit, so I do know what I'm talking about.

If you knew what you were talking about, then you'd know "masses" is always capitalized.

...the vast differences between Catholicism and Christianity.

This is an oxymoronic statement. There cannot be differences "between" Catholicism and Christianity because Catholicism is but one denomination of Christianity. Seriously now, Steve, your ignorance of Catholicism and dare I say, Christianity, is appalling. You're sounding like many of those of the Religious Right, which is not easy for me to say, considering that I tend to be a conservative individual ideologically and socially.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Yes moderators, by all means, let's do whatever Garth says to do. After all, it's really his forum. No other opinions need apply.