Ball 4, You're Out?

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I don't see any rules support for "appealing" a runner who has not touched a base to which he is entitled by rule. All the other explanations (abandonment, desertion, etc.) are supported by rule.

BayStateRef,

Neither do I. As a matter of fact, the rules explicitly and unequivocally state that "abandonment" is NOT an appeal play. The umpire calls it when he judges that it has occurred.

I aslo find PWL's assertion that is a simple missed base appeal just plain wrong. It's not. The runner did not advance past his advance base without touching it - he simply hasn't advanced to it - yet.

I'm a little curious as to what exactly Rich I. advised the manager to do in the LL tournament game. When I have thought about it, were I to choose to do so, the only thing I can think of would be to:

1. Make sure my (defensive) players did NOT leave fair territory.

2. When the BR finally entered the dugout or left the field of play OR the umpires started to leave the field, request "Time!" and then appeal their misapplication of the 4.09 Penalty. However, if the umps start to leave while the BR is still in LBT,

a. I don't think it would be proper for the umpire to grant Time prior to the BR completing his award (unless he had been "incapacitated"), and
b. I'm afraid it would "tip" the offense that the BR REALLY ought to go touch 1B.

So, Rich, what DID you tell the manager to do?

BayStateRef,

FWIW, I thought the way you handled the situation in your game was fine, & I don't think I would suggest you do anything differently in the unlikely event you encounter the situation again in the future. Per Bob P.'s comments quoted above in my earlier post.

JMO

JM

[LMan]

Well, the point is not to see how we as officials can catch the offense napping here. If the runner is alerted by the def coach's request for TIME or other action, so be it. You will just have a CF as the runner scrambles around and the def tries to throw him out Stay sharp!

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by LMan

Well, the point is not to see how we as officials can catch the offense napping here. If the runner is alerted by the def coach's request for TIME or other action, so be it. You will just have a CF as the runner scrambles around and the def tries to throw him out Stay sharp!

LMan,

I see you get my point. Also, since the BR's award is "without liability", the defense tagging him (or 1B) prior to him completing the award is "nothing" - other than possibly mildly amusing, in a third world kind of way.

JM

[UmpJM]

PWL,

I agree, one should look before one leaps.

However, if you check the ruling you reference carefully, I believe you will see that it ONLY applies to a runner who has already passed 1B. As I understand the meaning of the ruling, it is that a forced runner who abandons prior to reaching his "forced to" base, even for the third out of a half inning, is NOT treated as a "run-nullifying" force out - rather, as you say, any runners who scored prior to the umpire calling the abandonment, are allowed to score. Unless the defense subsequently "appeals", thereby "establishing" the run-nullifying "force".

On the other hand, ANYTIME a Batter-Runner is out prior to reaching 1B for the third out of the half-inning, no run can score on the play in which he became a runner. The ruling you reference doesn't say anything different.

Good point about "looking & leaping" though.

JM

[LMan]

Pete:

Babe Ruth plays modified OBR.



Just thought I'd throw that in there

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PWL

The reason it was put that way was because you cannot appeal abandonment/desertion. The batter didn't put the ball in play and wasn't required to run to first to touch the base. The batter was not HBP or got a BB with bases loaded to force in the run. So basically what you have here is that the advance of the runner had nothing to do with the batters actions. He had a simple base award. If you go over and simply step on first, batter is still without liability of being put out. Simply put you have to treat this just like a missed base. Then you will get the third out and no run will score. Do this and you should have no problem. I'm not citing the missed base ruling, but this is the proper way to appeal.

I totally see your point here. The batter cannot be called out for abandonment, as he has not yet reached 1st base. He can't be called out for desertion, as he has not entered the dugout or bench (or other DBT).

My questions are:

1) At what point could you declare the BR out on an appeal, since he still can complete his advance to 1st base, by rule?

and a very similar question:

2) 4.09(b) only applies when bases are loaded and 7.08(a)(2) does not apply either. How do you determine when the BR has waited too long to go to 1st?

I think I'll wait till he's at Dairy Queen and call him out then.

[Rich Ives]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

BayStateRef,



So, Rich, what DID you tell the manager to do?

BayStateRef,



JM

First, for all you debaters, the rule says if the runner refuses to go to first he is out.


The runner went charging into the dugout to hug his coach, thus "refusing" to go to first AND no longer able to do so.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Rich Ives

First, for all you debaters, the rule says if the runner refuses to go to first he is out.


The runner went charging into the dugout to hug his coach, thus "refusing" to go to first AND no longer able to do so.

That must be what happened in your game Rich, but not in the sitch we are debating. The runner never left live ball territory.