One to chew on

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Getting old? Like reading the same thing over and over? Like seeing someone post one put down of Evans after another? Wow, now you know how the rest of us feel.

Get the idea?

Like I said, I was kidding around. Quit making it some personal crusade, okay. One put down after another? I don't think I made more than 2 or 3 references to Evans in all of my posts. That is hardly over and over. All I said was that he was never one of my favorite AL umpires. I never once said he wasn't smart, or knowledgable, or a good teacher, or any other remark that could be considered a put-down.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

I personally see more logic in the "force" (batter runners aren't forced to 1B because of the way force is defined, but the rules treat batter runners as if they were forced to 1B) being reinstated, because it is on force plays at other bases.

Dave, I don't think you can reinstate the quasi-force on BR at 1B.

For one thing, as you know it's not a force, it's a quasi-force, so the rules about force plays don't necessarily apply.

Further, 1B is special, so the rationale of other bases doesn't necessarily apply to 1B.

Finally, if the quasi-force were reinstated, then BR should be able to overrun 1B once he returns, but I don't think you'd allow him to do that (and I don't think I would either ).

EG: this case, but runner takes about 5 steps toward home plate before turning back to 1B. He runs through 1B before the ball arrives, and F3 tags him out before he returns to the bag. I'd have an out here.

Ergo: the quasi-force on BR is NOT reinstated if BR retreats toward home, and he must be tagged to be put out.

In the given case, without a tag I have BR safe, nullify the balk, play on.

[RPatrino]

WTH is a quasi-force, Michael? I know quazi is a signaling format in ISDN. HA!

Let's all agree, no balk, no force, R1 and BR advanced one base. BR is in jeopardy with his aimless wandering.

[LMan]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

WTH is a quasi-force, Michael?

You know, dilithium crystals, rips in the space-time continuum, the flux capacitor, midichlorians, etc......

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Like I said, I was kidding around. Quit making it some personal crusade, okay. One put down after another? I don't think I made more than 2 or 3 references to Evans in all of my posts. That is hardly over and over. All I said was that he was never one of my favorite AL umpires. I never once said he wasn't smart, or knowledgable, or a good teacher, or any other remark that could be considered a put-down.

Still no clue, eh?

Reverend, Oz, quick, omebody call Jim.........no, no put down there.

Of course, if only you had gone to proschool, you have had a chance to be working on his crew, or maybe he'd have worked on yours.

Nothing here to be considered a put down...just recognizing your ability as you state it.

No crusade here, Steve, just holding up a mirror.

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=Dave Hensley]Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.

I guess the real question on these or similar type plays is:

When a balk is called followed by a play, at what point does the statuts change from dealyed-dead to immediately dead. IMO, once F6 threw the ball back to F1 would constsitute a "break-in-action", hence we call TIME and enforce the penalty.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.


Pete Booth

None the less, both R1 and B/R had advanced a base as a result of the play and prior to the ball getting back to the pitcher, right? So, why change the ball from live to dead?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by RPatrino

WTH is a quasi-force, Michael?

Oh, I just meant 'quasi' in the old-fashioned sense of 'as if': as you know, Bob, by definition, a force play occurs when a runner is forced to advance by the batter becoming a runner. So, technically, the play on BR at 1B can't be a force; yet it's much like a force, and we often talk "as if" it were a force. That's all, nothing fancy.

Edited to add: Dave Hensley, too, knows it's not a true force play, which is why his posts refer to it as a "force," with scare quotes signaling the distinction.

[RPatrino]

It either is or it ain't. In this case it ain't.

[Thom Coste]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.

I guess the real question on these or similar type plays is:

When a balk is called followed by a play, at what point does the statuts change from dealyed-dead to immediately dead. IMO, once F6 threw the ball back to F1 would constsitute a "break-in-action", hence we call TIME and enforce the penalty.

Pete Booth

Good grief! Just exactly what was it that made the ball become dead? A batter hit a pitch fair, and proceeded to advance to first base. One fielder threw a live ball to another. A forced runner advanced to the next base.

What made the live ball dead? Slow motion baseball?

[PFISTO]

Well I would have gotten the call wroung myself but I believe the correct answe is below thanks to my old instructor (not in age)

The BR and R1 advanced at least one base safely which makes the balk null, and it is now ignored. (rule 8.05 Penalty) The BR who touched 1B could have been called out for abandoning his effort to run the bases. See excerpt from rule 7.08(a)(2) below. However, if the umpire does not consider this abandonment the "force" on the BR is reinstated so no tag on the BR is required once the ball was thrown to F3 on the 1b bag. See excerpt from rule 7.08(e) below.

7.08 (a) Any runner is out when: (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. ....

7.08 Any runner is out when: (e) ......However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced; ......

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by PFISTO

Well I would have gotten the call wroung myself but I believe the correct answe is below thanks to my old instructor (not in age)

The BR and R1 advanced at least one base safely which makes the balk null, and it is now ignored. (rule 8.05 Penalty) The BR who touched 1B could have been called out for abandoning his effort to run the bases. See excerpt from rule 7.08(a)(2) below. However, if the umpire does not consider this abandonment the "force" on the BR is reinstated so no tag on the BR is required once the ball was thrown to F3 on the 1b bag. See excerpt from rule 7.08(e) below.

7.08 (a) Any runner is out when: (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. ....

7.08 Any runner is out when: (e) ......However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced; ......

PFISTO,

The force cannot be reinstated on the batter-runner, as the force out does not apply to the batter-runner, because by definition he cannot be forced. A force, by definition is when a runner loses the right to occupy a base when the batter becomes a runner, and that part of 7.08(e) only applies to forced runners.

This comes from J/R Manual, 2004 edition Chapter 6, Section A, note 12 on page 49. The B/R can retreat as far as the plate and must be tagged out.

PBUC Manual Section 4.24
NOTE: "In situations where the batter-runner gets in a rundown between first and home, if the batter-runner retreats and reaches home plate, he shall be declared out."

Also, for the ruling on 7.08(a)(2) from JEA:

"A batter-runner who inexplicably fails to return directly to 1st base after overrunning it shall not be called out before entering the dugout."

[DG]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.

I guess the real question on these or similar type plays is:

When a balk is called followed by a play, at what point does the statuts change from dealyed-dead to immediately dead. IMO, once F6 threw the ball back to F1 would constsitute a "break-in-action", hence we call TIME and enforce the penalty.

Pete Booth

I think in this case I would wait to see if BR reached 1B, and R1 reached 2B, before considering a break in action. After all, both are running, and that is action.

If we call time when F6 releases the ball the ball might go into dead ball territory and our calling time would prevent R1 from going to 3b and BR going to 2B. R1 would stay at 2B and BR would return to the plate if we called time to enforce the balk. Bad outcome for the offense when the defense made not one, but two mistakes.

Don't call time until everybody stops moving around. That is break in action.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by DG

If we call time when F6 releases the ball the ball might go into dead ball territory and our calling time would prevent R1 from going to 3b and BR going to 2B. R1 would stay at 2B and BR would return to the plate if we called time to enforce the balk. Bad outcome for the offense when the defense made not one, but two mistakes.

Don't call time until everybody stops moving around. That is break in action.

The balk is ignored. No reason to call time, since you're not enforcing the balk. Live ball, play on.

Of course, when the coach asks for time to hear your explanation, THEN you'll have to call time.