One to chew on

[Dave Hensley]

Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B. Meanwhile batter runner has run to and touched 1B. However, due to the confusion reigning on the field, the batter runner, after touching 1B, turns and starts trotting back towards the plate. Now, hearing a coach yelling that the ball is live, F1 fires the ball to F3, at the same time a coach has yelled at the batter runner to get back on the first base bag. F3 catches the throw while standing on the bag, but does not apply a tag to the batter runner before he arrives back on the bag.

The questions are, (1) is the batter runner out or safe? Was the "force" to 1B reinstated when he reversed course, or was he merely off his base and therefore must be tagged? And, (2) if he was "forced" to 1B and therefore out, or if he had been tagged for the out, would his putout then invoke the balk penalty to enforce the balk, since he didn't make it to 1B safely?

[BigUmp56]

Dave:

The J/R suggests that a batter-runner must be tagged to be put out if he returns to the home base side of first after touching first.

Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when:

3)A Batter-Runner who advances to first base and then returns to the home plate side of first base can be tagged out while off the base.

i) A shortstop's bad throw is gloved along the home-base side of first base and the B/R dives to first and is safe. The B/R stands up to dust himself off and is standing a couple feet to the home plate side of first base: such B/R is out if tagged off base.


So, I would say the balk is enforced.


Tim.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by BigUmp56

Dave:

The J/R suggests that a batter-runner must be tagged to be put out if he returns to the home base side of first after touching first.

Any runner (including the batter-runner) is out when:

3)A Batter-Runner who advances to first base and then returns to the home plate side of first base can be tagged out while off the base.

i) A shortstop's bad throw is gloved along the home-base side of first base and the B/R dives to first and is safe. The B/R stands up to dust himself off and is standing a couple feet to the home plate side of first base: such B/R is out if tagged off base.


So, I would say the balk is enforced.


Tim.

I would say that according th the interpretation you listed from J/R, the balk is not enforced. Reason being that if all runners including the BR advance 1 base the balk is nullified.

Right?

[BigUmp56]

Here in the above play the batter didn't reach first base safely.

8.05 Penalty The ball is dead, and each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk.


Tim.

[SanDiegoSteve]

If R1 made it to 2nd safely, and the BR made it back to 1st before being tagged (as the force was not reinstated), I say that all the requirements were met for 8.05's exception that the BR and all other runners advance at least one base. No reference to the balk, runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs on the play.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

If R1 made it to 2nd safely, and the BR made it back to 1st before being tagged (as the force was not reinstated), I say that all the requirements were met for 8.05's exception that the BR and all other runners advance at least one base. No reference to the balk, runners at 1st and 2nd, no outs on the play.

Assuming you go with Tim's Jaksa/Roder reference, you'd be right. I personally see more logic in the "force" (batter runners aren't forced to 1B because of the way force is defined, but the rules treat batter runners as if they were forced to 1B) being reinstated, because it is on force plays at other bases.

[ctblu40]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Meanwhile batter runner has run to and touched 1B. However, due to the confusion reigning on the field, the batter runner, after touching 1B, turns and starts trotting back towards the plate. Now, hearing a coach yelling that the ball is live, F1 fires the ball to F3, at the same time a coach has yelled at the batter runner to get back on the first base bag. F3 catches the throw while standing on the bag, but does not apply a tag to the batter runner before he arrives back on the bag.

In this statement, it appears as though he has...

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

In this statement, it appears as though he has...

I see now where I was tripping myself up, and I believe you're right. The balk should be nullified as the BR wasn't tagged and was to be ruled safe at first.


Tim.

[bossman72]

Sounds to me like the balk is nullified when R1 goes to 2nd and the BR touches first. The BR being put out at first in this situation would be the equivalent of the BR rounding first on a hit and being picked off going back to the bag.

So you would have R2, and batter out at the end of this confusing play.

When you explain the ruling to the coach, don't be surprised when he gives you a facial expression like a baboon looking at a Thesaurus. haha

[GarthB]

R1 safe at second, B/R safe at first since he was not tagged (force is removed), balk ignored. Let's play.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GarthB

R1 safe at second, B/R safe at first since he was not tagged (force is removed), balk ignored. Let's play.

Did you get this answer from the SMA in post # 5?

[PeteBooth]

[QUOTE=Dave Hensley]Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.

I guess the real question on these or similar type plays is:

When a balk is called followed by a play, at what point does the statuts change from dealyed-dead to immediately dead. IMO, once F6 threw the ball back to F1 would constsitute a "break-in-action", hence we call TIME and enforce the penalty.

Pete Booth

[GarthB]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.


Pete Booth

None the less, both R1 and B/R had advanced a base as a result of the play and prior to the ball getting back to the pitcher, right? So, why change the ball from live to dead?

[Thom Coste]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.

I guess the real question on these or similar type plays is:

When a balk is called followed by a play, at what point does the statuts change from dealyed-dead to immediately dead. IMO, once F6 threw the ball back to F1 would constsitute a "break-in-action", hence we call TIME and enforce the penalty.

Pete Booth

Good grief! Just exactly what was it that made the ball become dead? A batter hit a pitch fair, and proceeded to advance to first base. One fielder threw a live ball to another. A forced runner advanced to the next base.

What made the live ball dead? Slow motion baseball?

[DG]

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Pro rules. This play actually happened in an American Legion game last week.

Play: R1, balk called, pitcher pitches and batter hits ground ball to F6. Aware that a balk was called, there appears to be a general lack of understanding by the players on the field that the ball is alive and in play. F6, instead of playing on either runner, throws the ball back to the pitcher while R1 trots into 2B.

Originally Posted by Dave Hensley

Dave, doesn't the ball now change status from delayed dead to immediately dead?

Since F6 made no play and threw the ball back to F1, I would call TIME and enforce the Balk Penalty.

I guess the real question on these or similar type plays is:

When a balk is called followed by a play, at what point does the statuts change from dealyed-dead to immediately dead. IMO, once F6 threw the ball back to F1 would constsitute a "break-in-action", hence we call TIME and enforce the penalty.

Pete Booth

I think in this case I would wait to see if BR reached 1B, and R1 reached 2B, before considering a break in action. After all, both are running, and that is action.

If we call time when F6 releases the ball the ball might go into dead ball territory and our calling time would prevent R1 from going to 3b and BR going to 2B. R1 would stay at 2B and BR would return to the plate if we called time to enforce the balk. Bad outcome for the offense when the defense made not one, but two mistakes.

Don't call time until everybody stops moving around. That is break in action.