Another classy move by the AMLU

[gsf23]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Lets say he's been a pro umpire for 4 years. Let's also assume that he was an amature for 2 years before that (because not many people get a degree in baseball umpiring).

Now, in those 4 years in MiLB, he's probably worked 28-30 games a month per season (6 months long). That's roughly 168-180 games per season, for a total of about 672-720 MiLB games. That's not counting spring training, fall league games and possible winter ball assignments.

Is it possible that this amount of experience is equal to 10+ years of amature experience? Not too many amature umpires work that many games each year...

Maybe it is just me, but I got the impression that PDX was being a bit sarcastic. If this same situation had happened to one of those "replacement umpires", the charge would have been that he was in way over his head and didn't know how to handle those types of situations on this level. But since this was a "pro guy" I'm sure he handled it exactly how he was supposed to.(sarcasm note)

[ctblu40]

Oh... I get it. I'm a little slow in picking up on sarcasm on this message board.

[pdxblue]

Actually, it seems that MANY pro guys never umpired before going to pro school. So, there is a pretty good chance that he only has a few (3-5 years) experience. Maybe a year of Rookie ball, 40 games. 1 years of short season A, 40 games (two years, and he still hasn't worked as many games as I do in a year), Long A, maybe 120 games (about how many I work a year), then AA, another 120 games. I am counting about 320 games there.

Not that many.

And I am being serious. Many of these guys are not that experienced in umpiring. They should have to go out and do a few years of adult leagues first to get a clue about how to deal with grown men expressing their displeasure with calls.

I related in another thread about how I watched a AAA game a week ago, and the plate ump after every "close" call/pitch at the plate would stare over at the dugout of the team it went against. It truely looked like he was baiting them to say something about the call!

It never fails. When I work with an ex pro guy, and a batter gets hit, after the game they always say how they think the pitcher was throwing at them. I issue about 1 warning every other year for this, and it is never problem!

Anyway, yeah, a bit sarcasm, but a bit of truth in my post. Truely, this guy appears like he doesn't know how to handle tough situations. If he had a command of the game, I doubt that he would have had to dump 3 people from the same team! The term that the manager used "over-umpiring" is unfortunately spot on with many of these pro guys! I had several AAA players tell me about how with the "regular guys" they can't really say ANYTHING to them without getting tossed. I believe it based on what I have seen!

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by GerryB

Yeah, this thread should end...but why?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...41/1007/SPORTS

But at least he had a 'point of view' and wasn't guessing.
So that makes everything hunky dorey.

[dontcallmeblue]

Let's think about this some more.

Rookie ball 60, not 40 games.
Short season, including extended spring training, aprox 120-130 games.
A ball, probably 2 years. Including spring training and playoffs, aprox 160 games a year.
AA for 2 years, same, 160 games.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by dontcallmeblue

Let's think about this some more.

Rookie ball 60, not 40 games.
Short season, including extended spring training, aprox 120-130 games.
A ball, probably 2 years. Including spring training and playoffs, aprox 160 games a year.
AA for 2 years, same, 160 games.

Wouldn't you think the best of the best, the Top Guns of umpires would be able to manage a game better? Especially after over 800 tries.

I expected this from replacements, after all they were the third choice and mere amateurs.

Maybe this is an indictment on the schools not the AMLU.

Seriously, Maybe the school of hard knocks and experience is actually a better training ground than Evans.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by ctblu40

Is it possible that this amount of experience is equal to 10+ years of amature experience? Not too many amature umpires work that many games each year...

Maybe not in cold weather areas, but where the sun shines most of the time, 150-200 games a season is quite common.

[SCUMP]

im not defending the umpire here but the player did pop off from his position according to the article. as for the other two ejections if he issued warnings and felt they were throwing at the batter he did what he was supposed to do. in a situation like that i feel you had to be there in that moment and actually working the game. we don't know what had transpired throughout the game.

and being a replacement i read all the things some managers that were mad said about the the umpiring at that time.

so i say they are "RATS" CHESSE EATING RATS....tell him to shut the **ck up and play.

naturally the manager would call his player a class act even though the rat is out on the field running his mouth.

bottom line if he kept his mouth shut he wouldn't have been dumped....

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GerryB

Yeah, this thread should end...but why?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...41/1007/SPORTS

The third baseman hollered "bear down" at the umpire. Charlie Williams ejected the saintly Steve Garvey for the first and only time in his career for telling him to "bear down." So that ejection was a good one. The guy even admitted he yelled at the umpire from his position.

It sounds like Cliburn has a problem controlling his players, as it was reported that the entire Mud Hens infield converged on the umpire when he issued a warning for hitting batters. The umpire probably shouldn't have issued a warning given the circumstances of the game, but the manager should immediately clear out his players from the argument. Hopefully that is what he did, as that part was not reported.

Once the warning was given, the umpire really had no other choice but to eject on the next hit batter, so that ejection was clean too. The only question remaining is whether anybody was ever really throwing at hitters intentionally to start with.

[socalblue1]

I would guess that we will see more than the usual number of ejections the next couple of weeks. Why? The fill-in's accepted MUCH more BS from the teams than a regular MiLB umpire ever would (I have been hammered more than once over the years by partners and supervisors when working as a fill-in for this).

Not necessarily a criticism of the fill-in's, as they managed the games in their own way. The chirping & whining the fill-in's let slide are a no-no most of the time at the pro level. It's going to take a bit of time for everyone to realize the sheriff is back.

As to potential throwing at batters - MiLB want's a very hard line here (Investment protection). The potential outcome is a few more managers & F1's get dumped each year than is really necessary to control the game.

[SCUMP]

I Got Dumped By The Sheriff......

But Not By The Deputy.......

He Got Dumped By The Sheriff.....

But The Rat Swears It Was In Self Defense.........

[lawump]

Replacements would never let non-routine situations get out of control. They would never be perceived as handling a non-routine situation so poorly that a team manager would pull his entire team from the field and refuse to continue the game.

AMLU has been in existence since around 2000 or 2001. So we have had 5 or 6 years of games being umpired by AMLU members and not once did any manager perceive an AMLU umpire (or crew) as handling a non-routine situation so poorly that they felt compelled to pull their entire team off the field and refuse to play.

Replacements worked, what, two months or so?...far, far less number of games than the number of games AMLU umpires have worked in the history of MiLB...and yet, they managed to have that exact situation occur.

H'mmm, I'm sure those replacements' experience had nothing to do with that incident, of course.

Of course, I'm sure the pro-replacement posters' response to this will be that the manager who pulled his team was "wrong" and an "idiot" and "it wasn't those (replacement) umpire's fault."

Yet, in the same breath they'll say that the story involving the AMLU "AAA" umpire ejecting the third baseman, pitcher and manager was the "umpires fault" because he was "inexperienced" and he doesn't know how to manage "men".

And let's make one thing clear: I'm not blinded by loyalty to the AMLU. In all my posts on this topic this spring I have (1) used the word "scab" sparingly, preferring to use "replacement" and never calling any poster a "Scab" (2) never criticized or attacked any poster on this board (or umpire.org) for working as a replacement, and (3) I have even criticized the AMLU for some tactics and/or statments they've used/made.

However, we are now entering the land of the delusional when posters start thinking that any amateur (or the replacements) is/are as good as the AAA umpires. (Yes, even current amateur (college) guys who are former AAA umpires are not as good. Simply put when you work a lower level (and NCAA Division 1 is lower than AAA...let's not even go there) one's umpiring skills do not remain at the same level they were at while in AAA, period.)

Some say top amateurs are better than long-season "A" umpires...I disagree, but I can see their point of view. Some say top amateurs are better than "AA" umpires...I totally disagree, but yet the other side can still make a rational argument in support of their position. But implying that top amateurs (and replacements) are better than "AAA" umpires can be supported only by a delusion.

[gsf23]

Lawump,

I really don’t think that anyone here is actually blaming the umpire in this situation. The amateurs were questioned because of their experience, only fair to some that this guy has his questioned as well. Personally, I think if the guy is working AAA ball he probably has enough experience of he wouldn’t be there.

The point I was making was that if this story was exactly the same, the only difference being “replacement umpire” instead of “pro umpire”, there would have been all kinds of guys on here saying, “there you go, another example of an inexperienced amateur not able to handle the pressure of pro ball. A REAL ump would have never let it get so far that he had to eject three people. He was probably telling that scab to bear down because he had become so frustrated with the horrible officiating that is ruining his chances to get called up”.

And please don’t tell me that it wouldn’t have happened. Christ, after the Young bat throwing incident there were guys here saying that would have never happened with a pro ump behind the plate and the “scab” got exactly what he deserved.

[lawump]

Originally Posted by gsf23

Lawump,

I really don’t think that anyone here is actually blaming the umpire in this situation. The amateurs were questioned because of their experience, only fair to some that this guy has his questioned as well. Personally, I think if the guy is working AAA ball he probably has enough experience of he wouldn’t be there.

The point I was making was that if this story was exactly the same, the only difference being “replacement umpire” instead of “pro umpire”, there would have been all kinds of guys on here saying, “there you go, another example of an inexperienced amateur not able to handle the pressure of pro ball. A REAL ump would have never let it get so far that he had to eject three people. He was probably telling that scab to bear down because he had become so frustrated with the horrible officiating that is ruining his chances to get called up”.

And please don’t tell me that it wouldn’t have happened. Christ, after the Young bat throwing incident there were guys here saying that would have never happened with a pro ump behind the plate and the “scab” got exactly what he deserved.

Oh, you are right...I agree...it would have happened. No doubt. I'm just suggesting that it is hypocritical to criticize, repeatedly, pro-AMLU posters for posting stories about replacement umpires and then turn around and post one showing an AMLU member in a negative light. (And I admit this hypocrisy may be a two way street.) And while the poster who originally posted the link to the story may have posted it as a "rib" to pro-AMLU posters (a "rib" I get and was amused by), other posters ("anti-AMLU" posters) have taken it seriously.

As an aside, during the strike, while I personally did not point to one specific story and slam that particular replacement...I did state that the large majority of stories discussing replacement umpires were "negative" in their discussion of the umpires. My point at that time was NOT to slam replacements, as much as it was to suggest that such press was needed to aid AMLU's cause. (The theory being that owners/management would eventually move toward AMLU's demands if there was too much negative press. Obviously, this did not happen (for a number of reasons) and WWTB's prediction of the result of the strike was pretty close to being on the money.)

I'm not sure I agree with your first paragraph...several posters, at least to me, seem to be seriously critcizing this umpire...

[gsf23]

Well, if they are putting the blame on the umpire I don’t think that that is right either. It wouldn’t be right if he was a replacement guy and it’s not right if he’s a pro guy. Could he have handled it differently? Probably, but once he gives that warning he has to follow through with it or it will just cause even more problems.

I’m not a pro guy, but I tend to let a lot more inside pitching and HBP go than most before giving a warning. But, I was a bit of a jerk I guess you would say when I pitched. I did peg a guy in high school once while I was warming up.