Making sure this rat gets things right

[harmbu]

I am going to be a head coach for the first time this coming school season. The other night in an informal summer league game, an official offered me some advice. He said that if I ever had a question about anything not to go to the umpire who should be making the call. He said to go to the other umpire and then he would talk to his partner between innings and let him know what to watch for. He said that the problem would then be taken care of in an inning or two. Is this the proper porcedure? I just want to go about things the correct way so as not to get on the bad side on umpires right off the bat.

Thanks

[UmpJM]

harmbu,

Sounds like bad advice. Should you find yourself in the situation where you have a valid reason (i.e. rules misapplication) to question a call/no call, go to the umpire who made/should have made the call (having asked for & been ganted Time, of course).

JM

[LMan]

I think that official is setting you up

[LakeErieUmp]

I don't know. You might get it taken care of even before THAT. Of course, you in the parking lot might not be the way you hoped it would be taken care of.
I do not like this kind of game by a coach. If you have a legitimate concern approach the umpire you "have a problem with". If you don't have a legitimate concern find a comfy seat on the bench, grab a Gatorade, and enjoy the game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I am going to be a head coach for the first time this coming school season. The other night in an informal summer league game, an official offered me some advice. He said that if I ever had a question about anything not to go to the umpire who should be making the call. He said to go to the other umpire and then he would talk to his partner between innings and let him know what to watch for. He said that the problem would then be taken care of in an inning or two. Is this the proper porcedure? I just want to go about things the correct way so as not to get on the bad side on umpires right off the bat.

Thanks

That might work for some, but it will not work for many that I know. If you came to me about my partner, I would not say a word to my partner unless I felt he did something that "we" need to talk about. At least where I live most umpires rarely talk during the course of a game if not at all. I would also not have a lot of respect for you as a coach if you did not have the balls to come to the umpire that you needed to talk to. Also just like anything in life, just because one umpire told you something does not mean it will apply to other umpires. From my point of view this was not very sound advice. Not sure what you would accomplish by using such a procedure in the first place. Just because you have an issue does not make it a valid issue from an umpiring standpoint.

Peace

[David B]

Originally Posted by harmbu

I am going to be a head coach for the first time this coming school season. The other night in an informal summer league game, an official offered me some advice. He said that if I ever had a question about anything not to go to the umpire who should be making the call. He said to go to the other umpire and then he would talk to his partner between innings and let him know what to watch for. He said that the problem would then be taken care of in an inning or two. Is this the proper porcedure? I just want to go about things the correct way so as not to get on the bad side on umpires right off the bat.

Thanks

As a head coach, I would expect you to direct your questions to the official that made the call.

If I have something to talk about with my partner, its going to be after the game so any problems or questions with a call will be nullified.

Think about it with common sense, why would I as an official want you to ask a question to another umpire about my call?

Thanks
David

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by LMan

I think that official is setting you up

Yes, and did he say to "make sure you ask him where the pitches are missing, because umpires like to explain location on every other pitch" or "make sure to refer to the umpire's questionable parentage every chance you get?"

[BlueLawyer]

My personal preference: if you have a problem with a call I made, tell me about it.

More than half of the time, if you are in the two-man system especially, two pairs of eyes are not going to be on the same thing. Telling my partner I booted a call gets you nowhere except looking like you are trying to avoid me. My partner, if he's doing his job, won't have anything different than I did because he didn't see what I did.

There are some reda$$ umpires out there who you can't approach no matter what. Then again, there are some reddera$$ coaches who have no idea how to approach an umpire.

My advice:

(1) Realize that you are going to disagree, sometimes vehemently, with at least one call an umpire makes in every game you are coaching. Usually it will be several. For that reason, pick your battles. Complaining about every call has one of two effects: the umpire either deafens his ears to you or dumps you. In either case, overcomplaining is counterproductive.

(2) When you have picked a call you want to question, call time and walk (don't run) to the umpire who made the call. If you charge, you may get dumped.

(3) Be respectful and reasonable when you ask what happened on the play. Avoid personalizing the argument: "You're awful today . . . I hope you (insert umpire's day job) better than you umpire or you're going to starve . . ." These are tickets to an early trip home. Also, "you got that call wrong" doesn't tell me much. "No I didn't." "Yes you did." On the other hand, "Steve, I think the tag was high and his foot got the bag" tells me specifically what you saw that I didn't. I'm still not changing my call, but it lets me know, specifically, what it is you think I missed. If it's a "help" play, you can ask me to get help. I still might tell you "no, it's my play all the way," but I'm not going to dump you for suggesting my partner had a better angle.

(4) Know that when the argument's over, it's over. I'm going to let you have your say. What I am not going to do is have a 10 minute discourse on the merits of the force-play slide rule (that's what this board is for). "When it's over, it's over" means two things, by the way: (1) know when to leave that particular argument and go back to your dugout/position and (2) don't bring up the last call you think I missed when you come out to argue the next one . . . also shortening the effectiveness of your complaining time.

Good luck, Coach.

Strikes and outs!

[harmbu]

Thanks for all of your comments. I didn't know what to think when he told me that. He seemed to be the kind of guy who wanted to avoid confrontation at all cost. I had simply asked him a question in the first game of a double header. Between games, he gave me his opinion on how I should approach such things in the future. I wondered how his advice would work if I were asking for him to watch for something in particular and it happened several more times before I got a chance to talk to his partner and then he got a chance to pass along the information. I didn't push the issue, because I could tell that I was not going to get anywhere with him.

I have used this board on many occasions as an assistant coach, and now I look forward to using it to help me be the best head coach I can possibly be.

Thanks.

[RPatrino]

Harmbu,

Please ignore that bad advice. The best thing I can tell you is to treat umpires fairly and they will do the same. In all my years of umpiring, I can count on one hand the number of times I have trully had an issue with a coach.

I have found that generally there are maybe 2 plays during a game that might require you to have a discussion with an umpire. For the most part, if the play involves judgement (fair/foul, catch/no catch, safe/out, strike/ball) it is probably best just to forget it. If you question judgement too frequently, then when it comes time to try to get a reversal on a "changeable" call, you might not have much luck.

It bears repeating, don't get personal in your discussions. Some of the things I HATE to hear are: " You cost us", " Call them both ways", "You're killing us" or "thats the third call you blew today". Don't scapegoat me.

We understand that you have to back your player's up, but don't do it when they are totally wrong. Stand up for the game and respect it. If we are calling a pitch a ball, and we call it all game long, everytime, don't agree with your pitcher when he throws a fit. Support us, tell your pitcher, " He's been calling it that way all game long, get a clue!!" You will gain a lot of respect in our eyes if you do that.

Most of us know when we are being played, and don't like it. Last week I posted about a "coach" who questioned a pitcher wearing sunglasses. This last game he was asking for help on check swings all game long. We finally started refusing. That stuff gets old after a while.

Best of luck,

[nickrego]

You are either being set-up, or the person who gave you the advise is ignorant.

If you have trouble with a judgment call on the bases;

1. Ask for time, and wait for it to be granted.
2. Jog out to the umpire who made the call, and stop before your nose is touching his.
3. Confidently tell the umpire what you think the call should have been, and why.
4. Ask him what he saw, and why he made the call he did.
5. If you think he was not in the best position to see the play, say that, and ask him if he would ask his partner what he saw, if anything.
6. Do not go to another umpire.
7. Do not ask the umpire that made the call to ask another umpire for 'help' (say what is listed above).
8. Remember, one umpire can not override another's call, so don't ask for that either. If an umpire chooses to discuss a play with a partner, it is up to the umpire who made the call, to change his call, 'IF' he wants to based on the discussion.
9. Most important, don't abuse talking to umpires about calls. Pick your battles carefully !

If you have trouble with a Rule Interpretation;

1. See 1 & 2 above.
2. Confidently explain what you think the play should have resulted in.
3. Quote the rule !
4. Have a rule book ready, but don't pull it out unless the umpire asks you to. If I have a decent coach, who is usually pretty good with rules, I will give them 1 minute to show me the rule, and where I was incorrect.

If you think there is a problem with the Strike Zone;

1. Don't talk to an umpire about pitches during an inning. Approach them in between innings.
2. Talk to your catcher first ! Ask him where the pitches are missing. You may be surprised to find that your catcher agrees with the umpire.
3. You don't have the best position for seeing Inside or Outside pitches...Remember that.
4. Ask him where your pitcher is missing. Don't tell him what is wrong with his Zone. Approach the conversation as though you both know YOU don't have a good enough view to know where the ball is (because you don't).
5. If you choose to talk to an umpire about their Zone, expect to be ejected quickly.

Most (good) umpires talk after a game anyway. They DON'T need you to tell them what to talk about.

[3appleshigh]

I does bare repeating even one more time, Don't Get personal Or BLAME the ump for the result of the game. You will have a zillion chances where the ump is not involved in the process to blame him because one went wrong in your opinion is silly. Also DO NOT HAVE A MEMORY, we can't neither should you, previous calls and previous games do not exhist.

eg. in a game recently I had a Batter's interferance call. Batter out R1 sent back, it was the 6th inning of a 7 inning game, Close game and an easy straight forward call. Coach comes and complains, could have given heave ho, as he got personal near the end, but was not worth it. Inning ends no runs scored, 7th inn, same team gets R2 next batter singles to outfield and the coach holds the runner @ 3rd. No reason why, fielders never showed the ability to throw to a cut-off let alone gun someone at the plate. Only 1 out, next batter walks. So bases loaded, 1 out next player K's and final player gounds out 4-3. Game over. Coach (same coach) from 3rd, walks past me and says Thanks for ruining a great game blue. I laugh, and he says, that was the tying run. I laugh again and walk away. My "Correct" call did not effect the game as much as the Coach blunder or the last two batters, nor did it effect the previous 5 innings. So don't blame us because you disliked 1 of the 350+ calls in the game. Also If you don't like a call go home and grab a rulebook and check it out I did that night simply because there was an arguement over it.

On a side note, again they had to keep their memory going as I did another game for them the next day, 2 coaches ended up getting the boot. I'll give the scenario on that too. Some on here will disagree but it is something I believe in, but am beginning to lighten up on. But on the third batter of the day, he gets hit with an inside fastball to the elbow. I felt he made no attempt to move might have even leaned in slightly. I keep him in the box. Coach (different one from night before) comes out to argue, Screams "what Happened", I say he made no attempt to move, the coach is still 10 ft+ away from me and says what is this a new rule, what does he have to do this, And wiggles and bends down till his butt hits his shoes and stands up does a full body shimmy, I say See ya. !st he is Shocked this got him ejected. Then he starts screaming about how I screwed them the night before la la la. Other coach comes running in from 1st, (from night before) He pushes his ejected coach away and walks to me calmly. Asks why, I tell him he disagrees, we have a short discussion and it is over, meanwhile the 3rd base coach has come down to cheak on the now feining injured kid. As 1st base walks away, 3rd base heads back toward his spot crossing over the plate turns to me and says in an agressive manner "We don't need your Patronizing attitude" I infrom him we no longer need his services, he gets in my face we have a little screaming match and he departs. The most amazing and tragic part was that the kid with r2/r1, hits a rocket down third baseline, Third catches it tags R2, and throws to R1 for the triple play. Kid hit was the teams catcher, (a fantastic little ballplayer) and the team went on to win 8-1. All the while the fans were screaming about how I need to let the boys play, and no one is here to see me. In both games they had the "bigger" strike zone due in large part to their great catcher, but those two calls made me swayed against them.

[akalsey]

I think it's great advice. I have a few other suggestions, too.

After an inning or two, make sure you let the ump know what you think of his strike zone. Since we're all always looking to improve, we find that sort of feedback invaluable.

It gets hot behind the plate and I always welcome the chance to relax a bit. So make sure your players take their time between innings. Maybe even have the catcher "lose" a shin guard around the 5th for a few minutes. This will let me take a much needed breather.

If you think my partner's an idiot, come tell me between innings. I've probably been thinking the same thing and this way we can share some laughs about that oaf on the bases.

[Carbide Keyman]

Originally Posted by akalsey

I think it's great advice. I have a few other suggestions, too.

After an inning or two, make sure you let the ump know what you think of his strike zone. Since we're all always looking to improve, we find that sort of feedback invaluable.

It gets hot behind the plate and I always welcome the chance to relax a bit. So make sure your players take their time between innings. Maybe even have the catcher "lose" a shin guard around the 5th for a few minutes. This will let me take a much needed breather.

If you think my partner's an idiot, come tell me between innings. I've probably been thinking the same thing and this way we can share some laughs about that oaf on the bases.

I love the smell of sarcasm in the spring!


Doug

[mcrowder]

Nick, the advice that a coach should call time and approach the umpire in a judgement call is horrible. If a coach thinks an umpire missed a pulled foot or swipe tag, that's one thing... but simply coming out to argue (even nicely) a pure judgement call does nothing but antagonize the umpire, and will get you tossed by some of the old smittys out there. You CAN'T argue judgement calls. Period. This isn't MLB.